And the Sky Full of Stars | For the Second Time

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it, Jeff. The year is 2025.

[0:27] The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time paying attention to all the things that we didn't know about the first time around that's right and you know what this time around one thing we are doing that's the same is we're still going to be searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series we're asking what this episode was trying to tell us maybe we remember what we said before maybe not heads up for everybody out there from this point forward everything will be full of spoilers i say that as a promise, a guarantee. We could discuss anything from the Babylon five franchise at any point from any episode, any series that includes the movies, crusade books, anything of that nature. Uh, YouTube con panels, anything is fair game for us to talk about at any point throughout the course of the show. So if you have not watched this incredible series yet, you should stop what you're listening to right now and go watch the series. I mean that since normally I would say, Just listen to us and then go back and watch it later. We're not saying that right now. Stop this. Go watch the series and then come back to us here. And, hey, we've got this whole nice little companion thing. If you are watching it for the first time, you can hang out with us there.

[1:56] But make sure you do that because spoiler warnings from here on out.

[2:00] In effect. And as when we record our episodes, our council chambers, which you can join through our Patreon, patreon.com slash Babylon five first. They get to be a part of our recordings. And in the chat right here, we're going to be watching In the Sky Full of Spoilers moving forward.

[2:21] Because, Brent, on this one, I'm pretty darn sure. And the Sky Full of Stars is what we're watching. But I'm pretty sure we are going to be dropping a lot of spoilers in this one. Because when we watched it the first time, we had no idea where the story was going to go. We do this time. Do you happen to remember what you thought of this one the first time around? I don't necessarily remember what I thought of this one, but I remember why it was important because this is the one where we get Sinclair's.

[2:50] A battle of the line hole in his mind thing. That's all I remember out of it. I know this episode was super important because it did that. Did I like it? Did I not like it? I think I just kind of was like, that's a, that's a good episode. Probably is what I, is probably what I said. I also do remember this though. I remember being impressed. Probably isn't the right word. Grateful, glad that they took an episode and showed us this instead of just telling us this because so far they've been telling it to us and and i was like yeah they they stopped and they actually showed us what happened and it set up a bunch of other things uh for that but i don't remember what i how i felt about it how about you jeff what do you remember it's so funny same like i my note here just says i remember thinking this was important and i think i liked it the big thing like i remember when i was trying to i'm like the sky full of stars it's a battle of the line all that stuff but also i think this is the one where dude has a universe today newspaper and it's the first time we start hearing about like san diego getting nuked and all that kind of stuff and we get a big drop there's the psych or like endorses the vice president or something like that in this one so i don't remember as much as i thought i would coming into it well jeff would you like me to refresh your memory just a little bit please do well because coming out of our original episode on babylon 5 for the first time previously on babylon 5 for the first time make that drop jeff, do what I got to make that drop.

[4:19] Jeff this couple things that happened for us in this one this is the one where we sort of started our, oh this is the one where we started the second part of our prediction game was this early in the run the time to pay the piper yeah it was that one right the time to pay the piper I liked this line from actually this was myself I went you know that Lando and Jakar, Yeah, I'm kind of starting to like those two guys. They could be something if they're on screen together. Could be. Maybe. Could be. Maybe. Could be. Turns out, literally the best part of the whole show. You put Londo and Jakar on screen together, my God, if they're alone by themselves, it's even better. But even if they're in a room full of other people, they are clearly. And listen, this is no shade to Bruce Boxleitner or Claudia or, uh, Jerry Doyle or, um, shoot, uh, anybody else. I'm going to stop saying names cause I know I'm going to forget them. It's no shade to anybody, but those two Londo and Jakar, man, holy cow. And we're like, yeah, they're starting to be a thing. Might be something there. Maybe. Right. Right.

[5:25] Um, you, Jeff, you lamented that we actually, this is how you felt. You lamented that we learned absolutely nothing in this episode oh okay yeah you were like yeah we just didn't learn anything in this episode um even though sinclair and you you you clarified this i thought this was insightful even though sinclair learned something we as viewers already knew what sinclair learned he was just catching up to what we had already known okay so we didn't learn anything um and you said you could you could just listen to his last 45 second monologue because apparently he has a monologue at the end of the episode and that would have told you everything you needed to know okay so see about that but jeff here's the other thing and that really comes out of this episode this was the episode that made jeff say i should have pulled the drop so i could put it but jeff said and i quote i'm kind of falling in love with the show really that's where.

[6:19] You said buddy that's what you said the one thing that you and i both said and i'm i'm i'm glad to have really heard us say this until this point in our journey our first watch journey we never really got connected to our captain we never really got connected to sinclair we never got connected to the number one on the call sheet you know and this episode finally got us connected to him it finally gave us some emotional stakes with him and was like okay i like this guy you know like and and i can kind of see that because we were really harsh with him and felt very with him the first seven episodes yeah it's maybe maybe the first time we watched him 18 or 19 episodes well sure but i mean but especially those first bunch having gone through the journey with sinclair that you and i have gone through having completed the first watch.

[7:08] We're much more, uh, warm on Michael O'Hare and Sinclair through these first seven episodes than we were before. So yeah. So that Brent, let's go do this. We're going to watch and the sky full of stars for the second time. If you're just joining us right now for the very first time ever, and you aren't familiar with our, for the first time journey, go ahead and click this guy right here. Or if you're listening on the podcasting app, there's a link down in the show notes to listen to our for the first time conversation that brent was referencing earlier go ahead and pause this check that out we'll still be here waiting for you when you come back and do it it'll be awesome but we're gonna watch it here if you're here on youtube with us we're gonna do the reaction video thing you're gonna get it clipped and cut up and see us watching it talking about all the pieces that come up if you want to see the entire the full conversation that we have through the entire episode, we share that on our Patreon, which is patreon.com slash Babylon five first, the number five and the word first. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, uh.

[8:13] Stick with us because you're actually going to hear the reaction and then we'll get together on the other side of the episode and we'll share our thoughts. We'll talk about messages and all sorts of stuff that we have. Jeff, I want to bring this up right now because if we wait to the end of the episode to talk about this, I'm going to absolutely forget it. Um, to go along with the lurker's guide or friend ben who's joining us here live as part of our council chambers says he found a quote in the lurker's guide about jms in his predictions you know you and i both loved our predictions and making predictions and i've already talked about some of the ones we made coming out of this actually some of the ones i want to talk about later had to do with predictions of a new theory of what's really going on i said you really can't begin to speculate here like don't even bother making predictions which if that's something that the fandom heard.

[8:57] That might explain a lot of the comments we got back then. Uh-huh, yep. Right? He says, at this point, there's information you don't have. It's like trying to guess the contents of a box without knowing the size of the box. It could be a marble or it could be an elephant, to which I would say, dear JMS, Mr. Joe, that's kind of the point and the fun of making the predictions, you know? But I like that. Like, yeah, you can't predict anything because you don't have all the information. Yep. up it's it's it's kind of like people right now trying to predict how the nfl draft is going to go but the thing is it never goes that way there's a whole cottage industry around that right people eat it up dude there will be millions and millions and millions of mock drafts that happen and not a single one will accurately predict how the draft will actually even be close not one not one yeah Unlike our predictions, which were probably, I'd say, 85% there all the way through. Right. Right.

[9:55] Well, Jeff, with that, let's watch this episode. What do you say? Let's do it. Accessing file. This is where villain of the week comes in. Remember every time? We're like, oh, it starts at customs. If you're the first guy on the station, if we see you walking on, you're the bad guy, especially if you have the accent. Accent's always. The eyes. Yeah, right. Hey, it's Joaquin. Joaquin, yeah. I remember in the first one, I was like, this guy, who is this guy? He looks familiar. Like, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I was like, I know this guy. Who is he? It was driving me crazy. Recently, there was a bunch of Star Trek podcasts that did a pod crawl. They watched all the movies. And Walter Koenig was on one, the Seventh Rule podcast with Sirach Lofton. Yep. And he talked about this dude and how he was just like, this guy was going to be big time. He had all the pieces. Not my fault. All right, Snitsky. Uh-oh. That's good sound design. Then we find you again. Then we cut you head off.

[10:48] I've never understood that. You owe me money, so I'm going to kill you. And never get the money. Right. I've identified the target. Uh-oh. That's our dude. That's him. When do we take him out? Dude, these costumes, the costumes they're wearing, these costumes they're wearing, like that diamond pleated puff jacket they had going on? Ten years after the Earth... Very 90s sci-fi. When you signed on, were you informed of the regulations about use of the casino by station personnel? If I may ask, on one hand, why is Sinclair, why is the commander of the station dealing with this? I hear you've been exceeding those limits, Mr. Benson. Also, I think they get into his bank account. You can check the casino records. We have. But we both know a lot of unregistered side betting goes on, don't we? If you were to get into debt with the wrong people, you'd become a security risk. You could be compromised. I like that they explain why it's an issue here. Because at this point, like, why do you guys care? Why are you intruding on his personal stuff? Like, it does matter for your job. If you have anything to tell us, I suggest you do so. How many people actually come clean with that one last chance to tell me the truth? It never happens. I'm taking you off active duty pending the outcome of the investigation.

[12:06] Dismissed. I'm going to stand by my prior assessment that Sinclair has no business being involved in something at this level. Yeah. I can tell. That'll do fine. That'll do, pig. I appreciate this, Ambassador. I never get to see a Minbari up close unless there's something wrong. A chance to examine one of your people in prime condition gives me a baseline to operate from. That's an interesting line, knowing that he actually, during the war, had a bunch of information on Minbari. But the way I kind of interpret that is he wasn't working with a fully intact Minbari during that time. So it's like, this is a little way of being like, wow, seeing one of you all healthy, mind-blowing. Those of us in xenobiology were told to hand over our notes on your people. I got it. What did you do? I didn't do anything. Biological warfare. I destroyed my notes rather than have them used for killing. This is such a great, this is a great message right here, right? Like, this is the, this is, okay, to use the phrase, this is the Star Trek thing. This is what I was wanting to see as a Star Trek guy coming in. Is talking about this kind of stuff yeah like yes this is it not because you're doing it because star trek does it but no no you're gonna go this route like yes.

[13:23] Alpha leader you have a memory on your tail did they just say enemy is it weird this uh targeting fighter, It's a trap. Mitchell. Oh. He said it's a trap. Forgot about Mitchell. His buddy Mitchell. He's the big crux of the vision.

[13:46] Knowing what's happening, this is a great transition. Like, at this point, even as a viewer, you're like, what is going on? Well, actually, I was just sitting here going, oh, yeah, he's still in the dream. Like, wait, is he a dreamer or is this a telepathic thing? Well, it's the machine they were putting together. So it's kind of a. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a mind space? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you're in hell. Not that it matters much, Commander Sinclair. Because wherever you are, wherever you go, I'll be there. You're mine. He never came. I thought you might have seen him. No, sorry. Have you tried the observation dome? Yes. Lieutenant Commander Ivanova hasn't seen him since last night. If you'll excuse me, I'll have to get back to you later. Then you're saying all of this is a simulation? It's the Matrix. Not real. What is real, Commander? This. It's a good question, really. What is real? There you are. I've been looking all over the place for you. Garibaldi? Oh! No! No need for alarm. As you said, a simulation only. See? That was a good overlap, though. Commander. Like, Garibaldi leaving this, you know, C&C to look for him. How's it going, Commander? Commander. Yeah, what? Oh, sorry.

[15:05] That's never going to not be funny. Dylan asked, does this count as foreshadowing with Garibaldi getting shot? I don't think so. Hit him in the shoulder. Yeah, I don't think it's foreshadowing at all. Smart money said you'd make Admiral one day. Yeah, here you are. So what happened?

[15:23] Commander all stink that's such a diss like wow why did you betray us mitchell's dead this isn't real we fought for you we fought beside you on the line we swore we would all go down together but you're alive and we're dead because of you it's not true yeah billions are alive because of me i tried to warn you but you wouldn't listen if mitchell is a manifestation of sinclair's own guilt, right that right there is a really great example of the internal workings of of how guilt works you know hey uh i i'm dead because of you right like that's the internal thing and you have to cognitively in your head have to say no it's not true but you still have that voice inside your head saying this thing yeah right like um and i think that happens with so many things certainly more than just somebody dying like oh this thing happened because of me or because i did this or i didn't do this and you almost have to cognitively say no that's not right and that that is a fight that doesn't stop a lot of the times you know what i mean it very rarely becomes a settled issue yeah.

[16:39] See we know what this is now we didn't know what this was then no clue yeah this is like horror movie stuff at this point for it is yeah this by the way is far more creepy and horror movie than soul hunter was sorry joe good job on this one so one of these has to be the lead, one two three four five six seven eight nine it's all of them what do you want what do you want what do you want what do you want what do you want what do you want does that hey this is a question, this is a question for all of you out there or whether on youtube patreon council chambers whatever when you guys hear him say what do you want and that repeats again and again and again does that trigger the what do you want question that is so pivotal to this show for you does it or is it just a little earlier like because that triggers something to me like and now i'm i'm immediately looking for something like what how does this relate to that what do you want question you know i think it was just asking what you wanted he would have said they would have gone once but the fact that they had it bounce from all over the place exactly yeah and knowing that kosh and kosh 2.0 are just in the other room and and dylan points out sinclair asked both questions who are you and what do you want yeah yeah yeah yeah great questions from sinclair though right like like pulling all that together mr the one not yet right now not the one.

[18:04] Oh because here's the thing anytime somebody asks the question what do you want that can't It can't always be the Morden thing, right?

[18:16] Hey, nothing you need to worry about. Dude, this is so like clockwork orange type stuff right here, man. Terminate. He gone. You saw something, didn't you? Just before you blacked out. That chair effect looked pretty good. I saw it with you. Yeah. Gray figures. What does this mean? When did this happen? Gray figures. They have no idea those were Minbari. Sorry, they have no reference for that. Or Grey Council. We all hide things, Commander. That's why we bounce back here again, isn't it? This is where you hide behind duty. I mean, to us, it's obvious who that is. Now. To the first time watcher?

[18:52] For years afterwards whenever i saw him and barry had to fight the urge to strangle them with my bare hands we never had a chance you say we could have won but you weren't there you didn't see them then why did they surrender i don't know maybe the universe blinked maybe god changed his mind all i know is that we got a second chance before we get that i just have to say like that line from sinclair around every time i saw him in barry i had to fight the urge to strangle them me always to understand where he was as a soldier to then recovering in peacetime to now living amongst Minbari and working with them.

[19:27] What an incredible journey, like what an example for people and for him to be able to acknowledge that, you know, I think some people, a lot of people get to that point where they're like, yeah, I'm not, I don't have that kind of hatred anymore, but they cover up or don't think about or acknowledge that time. And like, yeah, I wanted to kill them with my bare hands he acknowledges that he names it you know and then still i don't know it's pretty profound jeff i'm looking at this person on screen right in front of us here is where was we're paused we should take the uh watermark down so uh youtube can see it really well is this dylan from the gathering not dylan this is the assassin assassin from the gathering changely net person that's who it is from the gathering yeah right it kind of looks like dylan from the gathering well if you remember the gathering that was part of the thing they wanted the minbari to all kind of be of one yeah one stripe sort of thing that's true yeah i remember that could you imagine being him and just watching the slaughter around you right these are the people who answered the president's call right who were like yeah if i'm going out i'm taking you bastards with me take them i kind of love this i know.

[20:35] Music.

[20:45] Oh, I remember us talking about this triangle thing, right? Like. Yeah. Yeah. And this triangle thing became very important. So that's D'Lynn, right? Don't we know that that's D'Lynn? I think so. Yeah. Cause she's like, oh dear God. Okay. So let's hold on. Hold on. We got to talk about this. Just to make sure we're on the same page. So they held up this thing to him. And basically what they did was in doing that, they discovered that he was a child of Valen. Yes. because that is how they determine who is a child of valent because it does some sort of i guess dna marker test what we what we didn't know at the time or understand or even pause it was he is valent yeah i don't think we even had the word valent yet not yet um so that's what just happened so so they saw that thing light why would they put that on him why like why would they even begin to scan him in the first place i wonder if it's a thing they did like it might have been a normal procedure or i wonder if kosh like pushed her in that direction we didn't see that and in the beginning but i could see that have been a thing but it's it's a it's a it's something we don't have answered we can only speculate yeah well this i'm not why would they have scanned him with that in the first place that doesn't make sense unless unless you're right and they're saying it in the chat unless it was caught yeah it's the only thing i can think of i guess i guess yeah and Kosh would have known because he's there because he does that kind of stuff.

[22:08] Yeah, we figured. I remember like, oh, they just scanned him. Like, okay, they scanned him, whatever.

[22:16] He's going all infection.

[22:26] It's pretty good wherewithal. Like, can't even get his feet on the ground and still knocks dude out. Invariable. Ooh, I like Katarina's theory. Sinclair in the past, Valen, knew this was going to happen, so maybe he implemented some sort of a procedure to say, oh, you've got to scan people when you capture them. I would love to think that that's true. I just need something confirming, saying that, yes, that's it. You know? Looks like he's been treated with psychotropic drugs. He may be delusional, confused. In his present state, he may even be considered dangerous. Yeah, thanks. I kind of got that impression. Keep me informed. Garibaldi out. Ambassador, stay back! You don't want to be here right now. Ambassador Delane, your friend. We know each other from way back on the cruiser. I mean, the council chambers. Oh, no. See, she had the triangle tattooed on her head, or whatever that was. Mm-mm. This is good TV, Jeff. Like, I mean, season one, 90s sci-fi, this is so good. I can't believe people skip season one.

[23:46] This is an episode that should be in an essentials list for season one. You know. Where's the prisoner? Who are you working for? I can't help you. I don't remember anything. There's something in my head. A hole? It says maybe you're still inside. We put a lot of stock in that little exchange. Never popped up again. Turned out to be nothing. There's a lot of things we put a lot of stock in that turned out to be nothing. You know? Which I think was a lot of the fun of the people watching. Just be like, yeah, no, that's not. You're way off.

[24:25] Out of curiosity, do you remember anything from your experience? Just, you know. Liar. Checking. He's a lion through his teeth here. No. Oh, this is dude living in her closet. That's right. Yeah. You must never know. With the weird eyeballs. He should find out. He must be killed. I just remember forever. Like, is that some dude living in her closet? Like, what is this? Right? But seriously, where did he come from? And where did her little triangle thing go? Yeah. And why does he have one? And what are the eyes and all this stuff? Doesn't her triangle thing, like, glow at some point or something? Like it just comes through i don't remember that i think i feel like there was something with someone with that but i don't remember if it was yeah you know katarina over in our chat card over council chamber says uh that could have been that would have been awesome that would have been cool i don't think i don't think jms would have known who naroon was at this point maybe he did maybe he didn't what is it they don't want me to remember they have to find out.

[25:24] Music.

[25:31] Yeah you do i have to find out i mean that's the this is what our mission is this is what we got to do like that's telegraphing to the audience this is what i'm going to do and if you don't do that you should never touch a typewriter ever again in your life as a writer it's interesting because like what we know is we got to uh you know a big story point of what happened in chrysalis, and then no more Sinclair and we bemoaned that in um oh pointing over.

[26:01] It was that point what's the season two opener you know the season two opener um the linear.

[26:07] Just gives us two minutes of exposition of oh this is what happened like here's the whole thing but it makes sense because he probably was going to stretch this out a little further and yeah make this the quest but actually in a point of departure thank you Fabio I I like that in that though it almost becomes like this is the seat the story of season one right season one introduces the idea of the shadows and is let's talk about this whole minbari human valen thing a little bit yeah yeah and then we launch from there you know i i feel like that's almost kind of what because remember it's like each each season's supposed to be contained of itself it's like its own little thing thing you know uh and they all had like titles and stuff so okay let's let's do this exercise real quick season one is functionally is world building but the story of season one is what is the hole in sinclair's mind right like that's the mostly yeah and that's what we're really trying to find out season two the story is the start of the war the coming of shadows okay season three is certainly not the end of the war it's just the war well season three is is the war and it's the decline of earth right you get all the night watch stuff five declares its independence how b5 gets its gets its own way right and in season four whatever the original thing was that's the end of the war.

[27:32] Um the wars right because we wrap it up with the shadows and the civil war the civil war and the minbari civil war in two episodes for two episodes you know and then season five um there's Byron and then Aftermath. Yeah, it wraps up Aftermath. Yeah, interesting. It is.

[27:51] So Brent, we just finished watching this for the second time. Anything stand out for you that we didn't talk about during the episode itself? Most everything that I – I don't know. Jeff, you and I have gotten pretty good about talking about it during the episode. And now that we're not cutting those pieces out, it feels dumb to rehash it all here. I think if I could just kind of, I guess, sum it up. Man, this was good TV. This is a great episode. It's a good episode. So I have a much higher value of this episode than I think I did. Jeff, is it fair for me to say at this point, I might actually like this better than I did War Prayer. Last time I said I liked War Prayer better. I might. Maybe I do. Maybe I don't. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. It's tough. Two great episodes. Actually, I was going to say, I can just appreciate two great episodes. I don't necessarily have to have one over the other, you know?

[28:43] Yeah. This one hit all the buttons, man. Man, this is a surprising episode for a season one episode, like the quality of what they're doing. This episode feels so important. It does. To the overall show. And in our chat a while back, somebody was saying, hey, listen, if you get three episodes out of season one, it's this, it's Signs Importance, and it's Chrysalis. And I was like, eh, you got to throw Babylon Squared in there too. That one's pretty important too. but yeah i could see where this is certainly um certainly one of those you have to have how about you jeff what would you come up with out of this one not a lot new out of it you know the two things that i i did want to bring up here specifically one i think i i agree this was an awesome episode and what's interesting about being such an awesome episode is you said that when we watched this the first time one of my comments was all you need to watch is the 45 seconds at the end and it tells you everything that happened. You're going to retract that statement right now. No, I 100% stand by it. Oh, no, no.

[29:51] But this is what's interesting, though. I say that from like a story standpoint, right? Like if I just say, what happened in the sky full of stars? Well, here's Sinclair telling you what happened. But we talked about at the very beginning of the episode how modern TV, contemporary TV, you know, what do they call it? Prestige television has trained us to always look for the twist, always look for the surprise, always expect some character to die. Everything is a galactic existential threat. It's not what TV used to be. We talked about there being no stakes because this is the middle of the season. I'm not going to kill the leading man in episode eight. That's just not going to happen. It's the journey, right? It's how everything unfolds that matters. So yeah, all you need is the last 45 seconds but if you don't get the other 41 minutes and 15 seconds oh my god you're missing out on.

[30:46] Brilliance yeah just the way it's laid out and paid oh it's just really good so good it's interesting you talk about how this prestige tv has trained us to look for the twist you and i when we watched this the first time uh we asked a question a very simple question jeff, is dylan actually a villain we asked that we talked about it here is dylan actually the villain because the great council is bad we've we've most decided right great council just bad um.

[31:22] Dylan's part of the great council so she there ergo is also bad but we said this is the story of her experiences who are changing her but she's she's starting from this bad spot But, Jeff, let's revisit it. Is Deline bad? Now, we know everything about Deline at this point. We do. So is Deline bad? Before I answer that, I want to say that what adds to that is like at the end when she's like, what do you remember? Like that really gives that vibe of villain. Like, hey, so I totally roofied you at the bar. And I'd want to make sure, like, what do you remember after we were at the bar? Like, are we still cool or do I got to worry? It really gave those vibes. Because you remember when I took you back in the room and, you know, do you remember that or are we okay now? Yeah. So it had those vibes strong for me. So is Dylan the villain? Brett, I need to preamble my response by saying I already have a massive part of the community that hates me because of my thoughts on Dylan.

[32:25] Yes, you do. I will answer your question with a question. Okay. Does flagrant ignorance make you a villain? No. Because I think that so much of what Dylan, we talked about it during the episode, Dylan started the war.

[32:42] Delenn ended the war, right? And so I think that Delenn, through what I'm going to call flagrant naivete or flagrant ignorance, wow, has done some awful stuff, really, really not great stuff. And on the surface right here of what we've seen, what she did to Sinclair, 100% a victim, 100%. All we know is she captured him, interrogated him, and tortured him. That's what we know. But then she makes it right. you know so i think a lot of her story is whoops mishandled that and i'm gonna make it right did they did they torture him though i don't know i mean they had him up on the triangle thing but we didn't see they weren't beating him they weren't mistreating him they just held the little triangle thing up until it glowed and they were like oh oh okay we better flashy thing i'm and i think in the beginning there were some pretty harrowing scenes they had him like strapped to stuff and i don't know that we ever saw like uh torture of him but i mean i think we certainly we're supposed to be given the impression from what we saw that it was torture but when we actually peel back the curtain it really wasn't torture right you know i mean what sheridan got in uh what is that in not inquisition um what delin got inquisition was torture what sheridan got in um what's what's intersections in real time that was torture yes this i i don't i mean you know stringing them up like that's pretty bad but that also could be a cultural thing like approaching people with your ports open right yeah maybe like.

[34:09] I think the Geneva Convention would say he was tortured. Well, apparently, according to Nia, JMS himself has literally has said that he was tortured as well. What would he know, though? If that's the case, then we'll go with that guy, I guess. I guess he knows what he's talking about. So I guess I would say Dylan is not a villain, but she is dangerous. Oh, Dylan's dangerous.

[34:32] If I can reference nothing else by, you are before me. He is behind me. If you value your life, be somewhere else. Like, the Lynn is dangerous. She might turn into, like, the side chick for the last, like, two seasons, but she's still dangerous. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, oh, my gosh.

[34:53] The other thing I wanted to do in this kind of discussion around this is in the Lurker's Guide, right? JMS said that this was unlike anything ever produced for television before. Directorally, the visual effects, CGI, all of that stuff. says it yanked sci-fi to a whole new level of complexity yeah what do you think about that well because i mean when well okay let's let's go to the other one when would you ever see this on star trek no never i mean we did right in deep space nine we talked about that last time we had the episode but it was so different and frankly conventional but it also happened after this well after this yeah right let me because like like we could look and we say okay battlestar galactica had stuff like this um certainly a lot of newer stuff but all that's post or is post and the sky full of stars you know and star trek didn't go that route yet yeah they didn't have the balls to do that yet even chain of command would have been after this like anything that goes to this level yeah so you know um yeah it's to win the villain yeah.

[36:06] What's interesting over in our council chambers chat, Delenn, speaking of Delenn says that Delenn is a victim of her upbringing. She was raised to be steeped in religion and prophecy. We see over the five years, how she breaks free from the indoctrination. I think that's a really good comparison and I want to hold it up against what we talked about here two weeks ago and Bester, who is also a product of his upbringing. I think in a lot of ways, delen and bester share some parallel paths the difference between the two this isn't me defending bester spoiler alert is bester despite anything to the evidence to the contrary sticks to his upbringing and double triple quadruples down on what he was brought up delen says maybe i'm wrong maybe i should look at this a different way can i rephrase what you just said yeah okay the different they both had the same journey and and choices presented before them the difference between the two was the choices they made.

[37:05] It's the, that's, and that's, I mean, isn't, isn't that Jeff, the message of everything is listen, it's, it's not whether you're good or evil. It's the choices you make, you know, it's really that simple. Like what determines whether you're good or evil is the choices you make. And Dylan says, if you read the psych or trilogy, which I'm in the middle of right now you can't help but feel sorry for bester and uh wow could not be more more correct.

[37:36] Yeah yeah yeah oh i like i like getting a spoiler from the from the novels in here that's good that is good i i warned you if you weren't ready for it i warned you it could come from anywhere um.

[37:49] Jeff i had a theory on this one okay, I had a theory back then. Pause it. You know, we're doing the red yarn, right? Yeah. So here's one of our red yarn ones. I said this. I said the Memorial were at war with Earth for whatever reason, not because they wanted to, but because they felt they had to exterminate humanity to keep the galaxy safe. That's why we were at war. Okay. Right. I said, but when they probe Sinclair's mind, what they saw, here's my theory about what they saw, was that humanity was worth saving and that they didn't need to be exterminated. They're ultimately the good guy, right? And, um, so they pulled back and then Dylan was sent to Babylon five to keep an eye on Sinclair, which I think is actually, that is true. Um, also because they're trying to help humanity take the next step to become what they have the potential to become Allah the fifth race of Stargate. Right. Right. Minbari or the Asgard basically, but they had to almost genocide us to figure it out. Well, there you go. You know, cause otherwise we were, you know, ants and peons that could really screw stuff. Oh, no, actually, they have the potential to really be good. You know, honestly, I kind of feel like this is more close than it is now. Yeah, I think it's – I mean, there are a ton of specifics and sci-fi-y things that come out of it. But at a high enough level, it's exactly what it is. Humanity. I mean, they – And the series goes on to show us.

[39:13] Humanity is the – we form communities. We're the race that brings people together that saves us all. Yeah you know i think about it the minbar war with earth for whatever reason because they were really mad at us because we killed their dude right um but they felt that humanity needed to be exterminated to keep the galaxy safe okay fine whatever but when they probed sinclair's mind they showed that he showed that humanity is worth saving why because humans have the soul of valen in them humanity is worth saving and they don't need to be so they pull back and delin is sent to B5 to keep an eye on Sinclair because what we learn later, we don't know this yet, It was the Mimbari that installed Sinclair. They had the final say and installed Sinclair into command of Babylon 5 when it should have gone to Benzane. Perhaps Benzane, right?

[40:09] Yeah, I think you're pretty darn close. I'm going to say that that is a solid theory that we had there. I think so. And I'm going to check that one off as true. And I think it also makes me think, you know, I think my understanding up to this point was Kosh and Kosh 2.0 really wanted, you know, this is how you end the war is, you know, the opportunity will present itself and will show up being like, you're going to see, you're going to meet Valen, right? You're going to be like, oh my gosh. But I also wonder if they were like, no, you got to save humanity because they're the ones who's going to bring you all together and you all together is the only way we beat the Shadows. But they don't want to be together at this point. I think the Vorlons wanted that to happen. Like they want to, we got to get humanity plugged in and make you not kill them all. Cause like this is coming and we need that. I've all got to. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. I like it. Jeff, there's one more note from our, our first episode that I just wanted to bring up. I didn't have a really good spot to bring it, but I'm going to bring it up now. This actually was from an email earlier. This has nothing to do with the episode. Okay. Email that we got earlier. Okay. I just, I want to palate cleanse this just for a second. Um, the email said that, uh, I guess we really, really liked Lando's password from born to the purple. Yeah. And it said, just wait until you hear Garibaldi's. Yeah. Lando's was better.

[41:36] Well, I, we, we actually took, we took turns guessing what it would be.

[41:41] Um, you said it would be hard. Okay. It's really hard. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure i gave a that's what she said out of that one but um and then i said it was either duck dodgers or it'd be one two three four five from space yeah oh man yeah now it'd have to be one two three four five six seven eight because you know password complexity and all that right jeff i just want to put a bow back to this episode on the uh just the messages piece of the whole thing yeah human lives matter humanity matters yeah right um and and i say this in real world context of humanity matters because frankly humanity is the only fully sentient species that we know of that exists in the galaxy right now so you know i'm not trying to be speciesist here but it's all we got right now with that jeff uh you know what i got a couple message things just three oh please yeah oh please sorry i thought i thought you'd gave those okay go ahead i just want to hit him real quick no i was talking about the episode like the construction or whatever right you're right i think uh things that i pulled out of this i don't think i got out of the the last time was Sinclair's journey wanting to strangle and kill Minbari to then being cool with them right that journey uh Frank is he cool with him though no no stop that is he cool with him though I think that he is really because here at the end he's all like yeah Dylan I don't remember anything he knows Dylan's full of I don't think that was him I guess him in Bari that was him and Dylan that was her like as a person.

[43:10] Because I think what we've seen of him is he's pretty cool with Minbari, I think maybe, maybe the one that I said, it's a preachable statement, but I still think this was pretty great, right? Don't focus on the lie. Focus on the why, why is the person telling the lie? All right. Imagine where we could, our discourse could be improved if we stopped focusing on this thing. And Hey, why are you saying this? Let's get to the meat of it all. So that's the extra stuff I picked up. I like them. I like them. Well, along with messages, Jeff, You know, one thing we're doing here, we're creating, once again, the completely accurate, 100%, absolutely definitive ranking of season one, Babylon five, our current top five here for our second watch. Jeff, number one is the war prayer. Number two, parliament of dreams, three born to the purple for midnight on the fire line, five mind war. Jeff, where are we placing in the sky full of stars knocking mind war out of the top five? Didn't we earlier say we don't have to put them on top of each other? We can just appreciate them all for being great? In general, yes. But this is the point where we do put them all on top of each other. Shoot. I guess we do.

[44:25] You couldn't be more right. Mind War is going to be moving to number six. And this will drop out of the top five. This is an amazing episode. And it's because this, in the sky full of stars, Brent, is going to land at number two. Yeah, you're still going to keep war prayer, but I am I I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I and I'll be honest. I wasn't tempted really to put it above war prayer. I did have to ask myself about it in Parliament of Dreams like for a second. I was like, because Parliament of Dreams was fun. It was just a fun episode. Yeah, but this was this was this was top notch television. This was incredible. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. Yeah, I mean between this and war prayer, I kind of like I think I might actually like this better than war prayer i i stress the word think, And also, I've said this before with some of these rankings, put them both in a bag, shake up the bag, and pull one out, and that's going to be your better episode. Like, it could be – they're both great episodes. So, Jeff, you know what? What? Man, my friend, that's going to do it for this week and the sky full of stars.

[45:37] We've got a new episode. Well, not a new episode, rather an old episode, but, you know, new for this particular run. On deck for next week jeff this is a monumental episode in the history of our show my friend it is we are watching the episode ninth episode death walker before we get to your prediction from last time what what am i talking about why was this episode so important to our show this was the very first time you filmed a reaction to an episode yeah nine episodes in man this is where we started the Brent watches video. Eventually Jeff jumped in because, you know, Johnny come lately over here. Um, but yeah, yeah, this is where we started the, started those watch throughs. So Jeff, what do you remember about your prediction last time from, uh, death Walker? Well, looking ahead at death Walker, what did you think it was going to be? So at first I said, uh, this is going to be what we thought infection was going to be doctor or a scientist is going to come on board. They're going to unleash something infecting patient zero who will then walk around and be death walker basically infecting people but then i went on to say oh oh oh and here's the thing the plague will only target aliens, oh i was thinking it would tie up to a lot of the the home guard stuff but isn't there an episode later on about a disease that only targets aliens.

[47:00] Uh that's one that killed the mark yeah yeah i predicted i predicted that episode all the way back here also isn't that one of those that like every sci-fi show does at some point yes it absolutely is like here's a disease that only targets this particular group of aliens they certainly do yep what did you think it was going to be about i said i said this was soul hunter part two oh oh god you got soul hunter death walker like they're kind of there maybe so maybe death walkers are like the anti-soul hunters like they are the the enemy of the soul hunter or something like that um but basically the same type of thing and you just went it's too soon it's i can't i can't i can't do it yet i can't do it yet that's that's what we said we're gonna find out how right we were no we already know find out what we already know we both were wrong i guess the thing so wrong wrong like incredible how wrong we were and i don't This is one of those, if I'm a, I'm sorry, if I'm a listener to this show, I'm just giggling at us right now. I'm like, you're dumb butts.

[48:05] I think that's why this was such a favorite part of our show for people on the first time watch. It's like, what are these yahoos think is going to happen here? Like, come on. Right, right, right. Couldn't be more wrong. But we're going to get us, our viewing, our second viewing here next week right here. Thanks for joining us for this. I love that we have you all along as we watch this for the second time. If you haven't already, please subscribe, like, rate, review, do all of those things, please. Also, very specifically, please share this show with somebody who may love it, Babylon 5 or whatever. That would mean the world to us. And so until next time, we're going to wrap up. I'm going to go ahead and hit the, I'm going to do it this time. I'm just getting out of here. We'll see you next time. Hey, Jeff. oh i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something.

[48:51] Music.

[48:58] We didn't write anything and i'm like i'm just gonna i'm not a thing i'm doing it and you said it and i'm just like i'm looking over i'm like let's wrap it up and then i look down i'm like oh shoot we got nothing and jeff's like i'm doing it i'm like oh florg.