Appearances and Other Deceits

[0:00] So what is to be gained by fighting? Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot. I'd like to be the one to make that decision.

[0:06] Music. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5. For the first time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin. And I'm Brent Allen. Alan, you know, Jeff and I used to be two veteran Star Trek nerds who decided to watch Babylon 5 for the first time. And you know what happened? We loved it so much that we decided to continue that journey with Crusade for the very first time. And just like always, we're going to be searching for those deep, hidden messages in this series. But don't worry, those are not Star Trek messages because this is not a Star Trek podcast. And to reinforce that, we're going to keep our long-running game, The Rule of Three, in play. This game limits us to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. One of those three. No substitutions, exchanges, or refunds. And Jeff, if we happen to make one of those references... In that rare occasion that it happens, you'll hear this sound.

[0:10] I want you to know that this thing just made a very large dent in my ship. The year is 2024.

[1:18] Hey, Brent. Hey, Jeff. We have a five-star review. Oh, yes. This one's off Apple Podcasts. Doondaraddle says, excellent podcast. Jeff and Brent bring unique opinions and viewpoints to their first-time experience. They made me appreciate episodes I didn't always before. Always excited to hear them on Monday morning. Doondardall, thank you so much. We very much appreciate that. Also, please email us to Babylon5first at gmail.com or go to our website, which is? Babylon five first.com and click the send a message or send an email or whatever button. I need to know the story behind your name. I'm genuinely curious what Dundra Dundra.

[2:05] Dundradle dundradle dundradle yeah i i really i need i need the story behind this name whatever it means also in that email will you include the fact that you're referencing the episode tko because i'm sure you are oh you know what yeah tko was a good episode man i don't care what they say was it the best maybe not but you know it's good it was a good one you know those are fighting words for jeff folks if you're new around here jeff really loved everybody's least favorite episode of tko uh-huh well jeff you know what along with our game the rule of three there's another game that we like to play at the end of the show where we try to guess what next week's episode is going to be about based on title alone we don't look at thumbnails we don't read show descriptions we just hear the title we go i don't know take a shot in the dark well this is the part where we get to laugh at ourselves by revisiting that prediction from last week and see how close we got so jeff today's episode is titled appearances and other deceits what did you think this one was going to be about i got the first part of my prediction came out right and that was going through a part of space from there i veer far to the starboard side i said then you're going to need to disguise the ship and themselves to get through that area of space safely not even close brent what did you think well i said not a techno mage episode there you.

[3:27] Go would have gotten me 100 100 points however i kept talking i said they're gonna meet a race that isn't what they really seem to be and the crew's gonna have to discover what their big secret is not what happened on this one at all not so much well jeff you know there's a strong chance strong possibility with this one now we said this for all the babylon 5 episodes but i know for crusade there's actually a strong possibility there are people who are listening to of the show right now who never have seen this episode or maybe it's been years since they've seen this episode and they're like i'm not going through that mess again jeff why don't you tell the folks out there listening what this show was actually about not just what we predicted it's all about appearances you know the people back home have to not only know someone is looking for the here but they have to look good doing it too and apparently earth gov agrees they've sent two people out to dress up the excalibur and i don't know maybe even design some new uniforms one of those guys is direct off of his stint with the ministry of peace and night watch it's naroon.

[4:38] I mean, Mr. Wells, this guy has mastered the art of surviving political change. Now, this doesn't slow down normal business on the Excalibur at all. They come upon a derelict ship with a big old hole blown out of it. There are dead bodies just floating around, and there's one in a cryo chamber. They bring that into Med Lab, and spoiler alert, Dr. Chambers does not long dark that cryo-frozen dude, so she's already leaps and bounds above early Dr. Franklin. They're trying to help the frozen guy out, but he dies right after he touches a med tech. And this eerie sci-fi light moves up from him onto her. It's, I mean, really, we've all been watching sci-fi stuff long enough. We know what this means, right? She walks around touching other people and sci-fi lighting them too. And they sci-fi light someone who then sci-fi lights somebody else. And before you know it, they're all earning a percentage of their downline sales. And all the while, that annoying guy from Warzone, Max Eilerson, is trying to decode the graffiti that was on that derelict ship. It's all kind of fun and games until Mr. Wells gets sci-fi lit. And then, it gets real. Possessed with the alien thing, he explains that they're a race that reproduces and colonizes by taking over the bodies of others. And that's what they're going to do here.

[6:02] Unless, that is, Gideon agrees to just drop him off on an inhabited planet. But Gideon, Gideon's kind of a badass, and he shuts him down. Tensions get high, and the threat of the aliens taking control of the ship gets more and more likely. But the crew doesn't know what to do. Matheson is reviewing the footage from his inspection with the fashion guy sitting right there next to him for some reason.

[6:27] Matheson asks him if he's seen him before, like, I don't know, in Prague or something. And he responds, it must have been Milan, darling. Supermodels. Nothing super about them. Spoiled little stick figures with poofy lips who think only about themselves.

[6:44] I used to design for gods. gods and then along with eilerson's translations they realized the sci-fi aliens were trying to save themselves by all moving into one person and with that they come up with a plan gideon gets all space suited up and heads onto the alien controlled deck of the ship with the suit on they can't alien light him so he vents the deck sucks all the air out and as expected they move all the aliens into to one person shockingly it's wells he runs for an airlock and he sees a person in an ev suit laying around so he transfers all the aliens into him but it's a dude dude named greenberg that got shot in an attack and now it's just his body that's alive gideon vents that body out and then that body gets blown away problem solved so after getting new uniforms from our fashionista gideon does his duty and writes letters to the families of Greenberg and Arkham.

[7:44] Another guy that lost his life in this conflict. Brent, what did you think of appearances and other deceits? You know, Jeff, there is no way this is going to come down as like the best episode of the series. No. Or even in the top part of the series. It's just not going to. It was campy. It was cheesy. The part I think that got me the absolute most is when Janie, she had the little thing. And Eilerson was like running away from her and her mouth does this like 90s horror thing where like it stretches abnormally large and she admits this guttural scream or whatever. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[8:29] This episode leaned into every single bit of it. And you know what? I loved it. Oh, I had so much fun with this episode. I'm here for every bit of it. I laughed my butt off all the way through this episode. It was so much fun. You know what I really like the most, Jeff? I like you said it in your recap. We have seen this episode a thousand times before, except the answer at the end, the reveal of what's really going on was completely new. The way they figured it out, completely creative. And I just once again, I just have to praise the writing of JMS who can take a setup that we've seen so many times before and bring something new and end it in a completely unique way. I was ecstatic about that. I loved seeing Wells again. He first came on the screen and I was like, that's Neroon. You know, it'd be amazing. I said this like literally in the opening credits. So I was like, you know what would be amazing is if he was the same character that he played the last time he was a face. John Vickery is his name, right? I think so. The last time he was here, I don't even remember his name. And we get all the way to the end of the episode, and finally they yell out his name, Mr. Wells. And I was like, that's it. That's the name.

[9:45] Oh, I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. We'll talk more about him. I loved the decorator guy. I never got his name. I loved his whole shtick. Yeah. Now, it was very 90s, and by today's terms would probably be a very offensive role to play. So maybe I shouldn't like it, but I'm not going to put words in the mouths of the people who it may or may not offend. I did like him, and I even liked that he, and I'm going to talk more about this later too. He was the one who actually cracked the answer. Yeah. You know, it was him who did it. Wells and the decorator guy were not just a wasted Rebo and Zutty guest star. They were integral to the plot, and I loved it. I thought Gideon's solution to the problem was a classic JMS resolution.

[10:35] This is the stuff we would have seen Sinclair do. This is the stuff we saw Sheridan do so many times, and Gideon's right there in that vein. So overall can i call this a good episode but you know what i liked it a lot how about you jeff i was bored in this one oh no but i think i was just bored because it was so paint by numbers you know up up to a point so much of the episode is just like okay this is happening this is happening okay okay but then it started to take a turn and i didn't realize like there was this little storyline that was happening on the side and I didn't like it very much because it was tied to Max Eilerson. And I just do not like that guy at all, but the whole thing with him and Stuart Greenberg and the, why, why would he sacrifice himself for me? And in the moment, I'm just like, okay, well, here they get their little message in. We'll talk about that later a little bit. But no, it wasn't about getting the message in. It was to set up.

[11:33] This was, in a way, this was believers, but slapped on to just like your generic sci-fi thing where you're like, okay, well, they're going to do a thing. And then he gets up to the EV suit guy. And for a second, I'm like, why is there this random EV suit guy there? And then I realized, oh, my God, they've been setting this up the whole time that we have a guy who doesn't have like his mental faculties anymore. It's just his body pumping blood at this point. And they're going to freaking sacrifice. And they don't just sacrifice him. They vent him and blow him to kingdom come. I was like, only JMS. Only. I mean, the only thing would make this more JMS is if that guy was 12 years old.

[12:17] You ain't right. right jms you ain't right you earned that one you need to wear that one we'll be reading his autobiography at some point i'm sure there's a reason for that theme in there but but yeah i mean so like as that whole thing really the plan to be really fair i think it was what you said too the moment matheson and the fashion guy were there and they used him in a different way i'm like oh now i'm kind of interested what's this at this point it was wells pulling me through i was I was interested in him. He's engaging. I wanted to know stuff. And so, okay. But that moment, I'm like, oh, I'm kind of paying attention. And then when Gideon shows up on that deck in the EV suit, and I'm like, oh, this is going to get nuts. And it got so just. But the icing on the cake and what brought it home to me was that scene of him writing the letters home for Greenberg and Arkham. I was just like, oh, my. Like we see that occasionally in TV, but not often enough. And Gary Cole in that scene was perfect.

[13:25] Perfect so i was bored 100 agree this isn't going to be in the in the top probably in the you know cutting the top fold in this series but totally not going to skip this episode like totally worth watching again i had i i i don't know why i had so much fun with this one because i think had this been any other series i would have i probably would have been like you would have been really bored maybe my expectations for the series are so low no that's fair and i i kind of am i'm just going where it takes me and just having fun with it you know because i know we got 13 episodes that's it and it's out like you know it can be goofy it can be all of those things and i'm just gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna go along for the ride jeff where do you want to start talking about this episode because there's i there's like 15 different places we could go and where do you want to go i I want to hit just a couple of things about the episode itself. Yeah. Did you notice who directed this one? Fear! Fear! He totally directed it. Steven first! Just acknowledging show order and things like that, episode order being what they are. I'm not like, oh, they introduced a new thing. But we saw this thing for the first time. But those bullet trains. Yeah. That made so much sense to me. I said, I'm looking through my note here, and I don't see it immediately in my note. But I remember saying in my burnt watches video, I was like, that's how you get around this ship.

[14:52] That's how you get around. It was a five mile long ship or something like that. Huge. That's how you get around the ship. They use the same thing on the Nexus in Mass Effect Andromeda. So I was pretty excited. There you go. Yet another callback for me.

[15:08] Let's just ask the big question, like the biggest thing out of this. What do you think of the new uniform? My first thought when I saw it, especially because it comes complete with red trimming and a tunic, is I really thought it was a stab at Star Trek. Oh, 100%. The fact that he said, what did he say? I look like a bellhop. There it is right there. I look like a bellhop.

[15:31] So I got to watch this episode twice. I don't usually watch episodes twice, but I got to watch this twice. At first I was like, okay, ha ha ha. Later when I saw him in the uniform, here's the thing. The decorator dude and Mr. Wells where they're talking about like, no, we need we need people to look at this and be like, yes, like we're going to be OK because and we'll talk about this. I'm sure here shortly, but their whole point for being there, which seems so superficial and so whatever, actually is a really good point. And I was sitting there going, okay, so there's the black uniform and then there's the bellhop uniform. If I'm a dude sitting back on earth, freaked out of my gourd about this disease, everything is melting down around me. And I look up on TV and I see some footage of these people who are supposed to be our hope. And these are the people that are going out and getting it and doing it. Do I want to see somebody in whatever this black uniform thing is that kind of just looks comfortable and whatever? Is that going to inspire me and fill me with hope and let me get through the next five years?

[16:41] Or is it the guy wearing the Star Trek uniform? Dude, that's a badass going through space. That looks good on TV, and that's going to call me. And you know what? I kind of said the bellhop uniform would be the one that I think would have the most impact on me. I couldn't possibly disagree more on on every thought you would yeah every point like i think one i think the uniform just looks horrible especially when he has like the undershirt on it looks like he has like a lobster yeah you know bib it's horrible and if i'm home freaking out about this and they show me this crew of people in this lightly brightly lit ship with these really nice uniforms smiling and doing their jobs and looking like they're heroes. I'm going to be like, we're lit.

[17:33] I literally had to like murder my neighbor's pets so I could eat. Like it's nuts down here. And you're out there being like, whoa, it's so great as we're looking. No, I want to see you out there working hard. I want to see grit. I want to see sweat. I want to hear these reports of we did this, this, this, and this. Like I want you to look military. I want you to look like you're out there doing stuff. Not like you're out on a luxury liner having a good time.

[18:00] But what looks more military? the uniforms that we got the star i'm gonna call them the star trek uniforms that's fair because that's what they looked like all right they honestly actually know what they look more than star trek they look more like the galaxy quest uniforms yes that's a great call great call but there's that or there's whatever this black uniform now i want to i just want to state if i was there i'd want to wear the black uniform because i thought it looked great i thought it was it was a i had no problems that uniform i don't know why they felt the need to change it maybe studio interference or something like that wanted it to be more bright or something that's going to be my guess as to why but i yeah i don't know i i think i would just be better if it was if it was this other other uniform you know because here's the other thing we're not going to get the mission reports we're not going to hear about all the stuff that they did it'll be very not on public tv isn has got to be pumping that stuff out i mean that's what's going to make the difference it it's all going to be very superficial and on the surface as far as what they got going on so they're going to show these little clips i want to see them and i think for the uniform looking military those black uniforms i don't know if it was intentional or not but those are almost the same as what we wore on the submarine.

[19:12] Are they? Oh, yeah. We call them poop suits because of the way you had to zip them and get in and out of them. These had a lot more utility to them, but totally have the look. Almost like Star Trek Enterprise. The uniforms they had in Enterprise were submarine uniforms, essentially. It's just with more dress up on them. Yeah, yeah. So I got that same vibe here. I liked it. But we'll talk about this a little bit more when we get to messages because I have other thoughts on it. But I thought it was interesting, too. They bring them in to like, let's brighten the space. Let's do all this stuff and maybe look at your uniforms. uniforms i i'm i don't think they made any changes to the space that i that i noticed well not that we saw and i don't know that they'll actually do it but they they he did talk about we got to change some colors we got to do some different stuff in here let's let's go there jeff so they come in and he says they've been there for for a few weeks or whatever they're kind of at the end of it and, they they're gonna they need to make these changes to the color scheme they're making changes to the uniform obviously they're very very annoying to the crew however naroon or not Mr. Wells, talks about how he says they have to have the right political sway and social sway. When you first heard that, what was going through your head? Oh, at that point, I knew it was Wells. I knew it was him. Oh, did you? Yeah.

[20:29] I don't think they said it at that point, but they said it really shortly afterwards. Because at first they hinted. His exact line was, I'm someone who knows how to survive. See, I don't think they said his name until the very end. oh no they call them wells throughout the whole episode do they uh captain we have a they're calling it's wells.

[20:45] Um okay whatever but but that's what i thought of it literally was just like they are so.

[20:52] Masterfully tongue-in-cheek in the fact that like hey last time this guy was absolutely horrible, and you know had ivanova and was making all these promises to her so it's like yeah i get it but i understand i thought it was brilliant it was just a great way of making him a sympathetic character but but what but as far as the whole like no no we're here we're We're going to make all these changes for political reasons, not functional, just political, because, you know, if this whole thing succeeds, what's this going to mean for our current administration? That's going to be quite the feather in the cap. Like that sounds so gross and disgusting, right? Or at least to me, it does. I think it comes down to this question. What's more important, actually finding the cure or the way people perceive you looking for the cure? were. So that actually, I think is a great question that we do need to ask because he goes on to explain a really good point. The plague is still four years away. We got people panicking right now. This is the more immediate need. And we have to get people calm. We have to give people a sense of hope that we're going to get through these next four years and beyond. We've got to get this under control and it has to have the right social impact, which of course is going going to come back to the political side and you know since we're footing the bill and paying the money that should make no difference whatsoever to be honest with you but regardless at first i was like oh this is so gross this is so gross and then he started talking i was like actually.

[22:17] I think that's a really good point and they do they've they've got to give people that hope so i'm gonna go back to late 2001 early 2002 okay here in the united states we were in a panic We were freaking out, and we had a lot of messaging, right? Go shopping, otherwise the terrorists win. Go to the show, otherwise the terrorists win. But people were afraid, and they needed something in place that restored that hope. And one of the things they put in place was the TSA. Hey, look, you go to the airport now, look at all this security. It's great. Well, here we are 22, 23 years later. We spend $11 billion a year on the TSA, and they fail. Well, actually, back in 2015, they failed 95% of their audits. 95% of the time, if they tested it, dangerous stuff got through. They've improved, and now it's only about 80% failure. But what we did is we took this moment and we said, we need something that looks good and makes it look like we're making people safe. And now what we have is a thing that is invasive, ridiculously expensive, and provides zero safety whatsoever.

[23:38] And it never did. Yeah. Never did. You know, I mean, and so I think to me it just comes down to that question of do it's that it is that question do you want the thing or do you want the theater of the thing you get into like it stuff changing your password come on that's so like 2015 we're so beyond that now for security but that's the thing you got to change your password every 90 days because no just come on use something like that we need to make people feel that but the reality and i And I agree there's, there's, I'm not saying there's not value in making people feel, you know, that things are being handled or whatever, but the reality is almost when we put that thing in place that looks and feels good, almost never are we actually doing the thing.

[24:26] And so maybe this is the time to say, hey, you know what? We could have come with you dressed up. We could have done these things, but we know you're hurting and we want resources for you here. And we're going to keep you up to date on all the great things that are happening on the Excalibur. In fact, every week for one hour, you can tune in and see exactly what's happening. I get your point. I really do. And you're probably making the most sense and a way more valid point. I still think Wells has a good point, too, though. Maybe it's yes and maybe it's both. You know, you could be right. Right. You could be right. I like that very non-confrontational answer right there. Hey, can we agree on this? Hail Mary Across the Stars would be a great name for a rock album. Oh my God, yes. Maybe not a band name, but the name of their third album or whatever. Their concept record. Yeah. Like right behind me here is the, I can't even point at the thing because it's all backwards, but i got 2112 right over here that that's a great name but that could have been hail mary across the stars just as easily hey let's talk about janie for a minute okay so janie typical, doctor's assistant nurse ogawa just that person right yeah oh man.

[25:42] Uh she goes in and and they got dude frozen on a plate on a on a table and she runs in and grabs the defibrillator as if this alien body has a heart that's controlled by electricity that can be defibrillated and she's gonna put the paddles in the exact same spot as like what come on now that's even more ridiculous because what we know is like the centauri have two hearts and they're placed kind of so it's not like it's uncommon to have things different that's why do i have the quote here i gotta see if i have because it was so incredible what uh what dr chambers said to her afterwards i want you to go through full decon including body cavity maybe we'll get lucky and find out where your copy of med lab regulations went.

[26:30] Like to me that's like that you're you're you're you're standing a captain's mast if nothing else for doing something like that okay for us non-navy folks what does that mean standing at a captain's mast so captain's mast is like uh court on the on the on the ship like you go you present your case and the captain renders judgment it's not to the point of like a court martial okay or it's a big thing but it's just handled it's just like internal discipline or whatever i mean they can still take real action like knock you down and rank and they can even kick you out i mean they can do real stuff but yeah it's much more much less than than a court-martial would be so dude grabs janie and you talked about the light the sci-fi light that we've all seen which we totally know means his conscience consciousness is being transferred into her yeah um there's always one left alive you go to the ghost ship right it's the ghost ship that's That's what we saw. And there's always that one. There's always. And that one's going to have the thing downloaded. And then she goes and she starts acting weird. And she's individually distributing these personalities around. We assume that this is where the watching sci-fi a lot kind of bit us in the butt a little bit, or at least me. My thought was, well, he has the entire civilization in his brain.

[27:50] And he's he's distributing the different people the different personalities as they go around and they're gonna they're gonna kind of kind of take over we learn later though there was actually something different but i mean it sounds like you were just like me when i was watching this just going dude i've seen this i know what this is yeah i mean it was i mean i said it in my first thought it's total paint by numbers down to the effects and everything but it was like you said And your first thoughts, too, it was very unique, you know, the idea. And I think I've rolled back to, I love, I so love back to passing through Gethsemane when we learned about the Minbari religion. And, like, I love that. We're all manifestations of the universe just trying to figure stuff out. Right. And this was almost like that idea put into a species where they said like there was the one and then we're all, you know, coming from the one and we're all, I forget what it was they said, but like we're all a little lesser than that one, but we're all, and it's just like manifestations of the same being, but also I.

[29:01] I'm very interested about this alien race, not only the one that moved around, but the one that was housing it like the guy they found. At first, I thought it was like the tribe or the shadow surgeons or something like that. But I would love to learn more about these little sci-fi light aliens. Fascinating. Well, and that's the thing. And see, that's where this whole thing took a turn for me was when they go, no, no, it's actually just one alien who is subdividing like cellular mitosis. Yeah. Yeah. And I put down there at some point, I was like, oh, this is not all these entities in one body. This is one entity getting spread. And oh, by the way, also, those aliens that we found them in also probably not the original inhabitants for that. Like, they were actually victims, not the perpetrators or whatever, I guess. Yeah.

[29:54] That I thought was that was the unique side. That's where this took a turn and was like oh okay this is something new this is something different i really appreciate where they're going with this and now i'm into it i want to see what happens it's cool how they brought that up too it's eilerson i hate i hated that he actually moved stuff along in this episode because i just i'm so annoyed every time he's on screen.

[30:19] But i think even gideon is annoyed by him like they're sitting in the mess hall that looks like a sizzler from the late eighties. And he keeps his back to him and like barely even looks at him. All Max is just so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Look how smart and important I am. And getting like, yeah, okay. Yeah, whatever, whatever. But he noticed he's like, there's this language and then there's this other language and they're totally different. There's nothing between them. Right. And even when he realized that and he stands up and, Oh my God, look how smart I am. Oh, awful. But I liked the idea of that. So that scene you're talking about, I have to say, I thought this might have been one of Stephen first greatest moments as a director. Okay. The idea that Gideon and Eilerson are sitting back to back, having a full on conversation with each other, almost as if they're like two spies meeting in a park, sitting on opposite sides of the bench, not supposed to look like they're having a conversation, but totally having a conversation together. I just thought it was so interesting. I put something out. I think somebody wrote a comment on like our Patreon page or something, maybe in discord of how what the script says, because I wanted to know if this was something that JMS said.

[31:31] That he he directed that in the stage directions or if this was something that steven first or his dp came up with as they were trying to figure out how to shoot this and um they said basically gideon comes in and he sits at a different table than eilerson yeah or like an adjacent table or something like that so not specifically directly behind him you know so i think that went okay okay but i just like visually i do not know the last time we've seen that kind of a conversation occurring it's super unique you know um we we've seen like hey i'm sitting over here and person sitting at that table we're having a conversation but you're still facing each other and at most just kind of a little bit over the shoulder a little bit yeah kind of going that's a great point though on it being almost like two spies it almost reminds me of um al pacino and robert de niro and heat when they before they sit across the table for the first time but they're They're still kind of talking back and forth and then they end up face to face. But I think that made me think just now of other cool things that Stephen first probably put in as a director. And that's when Janie went after Eilerson. I thought that was awesome because like he had no idea. And it was lit. I mean, and this made so much so realistic. He's just like, I'm done pontificating over here. I'm going to walk away just as she reaches.

[32:47] And then I thought that was great. And she reaches out and then her hand lands on somebody else. And she Vulcan neck pinches the dude and spreads her like everybody was grabbing people by the neck man like that's the magic the magic spot but that's the scene that then led to the shootout where things really started to escalate big time and the.

[33:08] You know that I almost felt like I was watching Predator yeah you know he takes the mask off and which would have been cool if it turned into something like that but instead it was just like hey by the way this is a late 90s thing that we're doing yikes you know what i loved seeing we got a little we got a little shot the little floaty camera thing the little drone camera remember when it was hitting linear in the head.

[33:34] I love they brought that back. It gets right up in Wells. Wells just gets right up in it and stuff. It's like this is just a normal thing. Right, right. I think we just got a lot of really cool day-in-the-life ship stuff that was just happening. Sure. People in the corridor when the shootout's happening and having to move away. It wasn't just this empty space. And then that's where dude got shot. I said it in my reaction. I'm going to say it again here. That scene was dumb. Oh, where he got shot? So the dude's military of some kind, you know, whatever. And like the minute they're going, he turns his back.

[34:07] I'm glad you got shot. Like, not really. That's awful. Yes, that is awful, Jeff. Jeez. What do you think you're, what did you think was going to happen? But he took a bullet. Now, it did not impact me or occur to me in the moment that he just sacrificed himself for Eilerson. Eilerson I literally thought it was just like I'm the moron who got hit like and he just got hit and Eilerson just happened to be on the other side but he turned it into this big thing of like no man he took a bullet for me he you know and it it kind of messed him up in the head probably in a really good way to be honest with you I think so too if this was if there was more to this show and it was actually like chronological in some way I think this would have been a turning point for Eilerson's character you know would have started some reflection we would have seen him soften up almost his franklin arc you know would have been predicated from this but that probably won't be the case because some people say this was one of the last episodes you're supposed to watch so i mean it's all over the place yes, So Wells gets his, his thing, however, many splits later that becomes Wells. How is it? He turns into the spokesman for the group. Uh, I think you can refer to the screen actors guild guide to find out how that happened.

[35:25] But for real, why wasn't it Janie? So he, he, he, you know, not propositions. That's not the right word. He proposes, proposes. Well, he says to Gideon, he's like, hey, your only way out of this, like, we've got the upper hand. We're going to win. We're here. You can't do anything about it. The only way out of this is to make us somebody else's problem. Like, my note literally says, and this is a little bit more dope, I'm like, the freaking balls on these guys. We're going to get there one way or another. You can live or not. That's on you. Make us someone else. And Gideon says no. He's like, no, I'm not going to make you somebody else's problem. If, if, if we're going to die, then we're all going to die here. Also, by the way, who says you're actually going to leave us alone? Yeah. Where's the guarantee? I don't know that you're going to do that. Um, here's the thing I had a problem with though, out of all of that, this ship, the Excalibur and her crew are the one hope for humanity to solve this cure. And he's willing to like basically go down with the ship and everybody on it and, and issue the self-destruct over this whole issue. you. That's a good point.

[36:35] Cause I was thinking like, he's just, I mean, how hardcore he is, you know, it's just like, yeah, he's like, no, Hey, if you hurt us, you hurt you bring it on. But God, when he's down in the little EV suit and they're like, what are you going to do, bro? There's one of you. And he's like, yeah, I'll just shoot you in the kneecap and we'll fix you later. I'll shoot you in the kneecap and we'll fix you later. I don't care. The thing that I got jumping way to the end.

[37:00] But to wrap it here, wrap it back to here also, he's in Greenberg. And as he's getting, like, he realizes what's going on. He's like, I know what you're looking for. I know where to find it. Yeah. Yeah. There was a part of me that was like, and this is assuming some altruism on the part of these aliens. But it's saying, look, you got a choice here. You can drop us off on an inhabited planet and we'll let you go. Or we're going to take you over and go to an inhabited planet. He could have said, how's this? How about you drop us off at an inhabited planet we tell you where to find this cure and let you go that would have introduced such a moral dilemma for gideon like do i go kill this planet this inhabited colony or whatever to save earth so here's the thing and this is my thought about that because i i definitely there's my note right there about it we can assume that this entity is not the only one of his kind out there in the universe.

[37:58] True. I agree. So if he knows what they're looking for, he knows where this cure is because that's exactly what I understood it to be as well was he knows where the cure is. One, he could just know that that's what they're trying to do. And this is just something he's trying to say to stay alive and it doesn't work. Or is this something that was planned to come back later? Like, was this in JMS is long-term plan. And this is one of those where we're introducing it. We're world building a little bit here. Kind of this is the soul hunter of the series, right? Like like we're we're doing this, but we're going to come back to this much later.

[38:33] And, you know, maybe that's how we find out. And I don't know. I don't know if that was going to be the plan or not. Yeah, but that's in my head. That's where I'm OK with this of there's other beings out there that also know. And this one's just got to die because he's an asshole. And that guy uh we're gonna find him later and he's gonna let us know it does it does add a really neat wrinkle of just there are people that know what's up which is interesting because of what because of the books i understand that it was a droc manufactured plague for the minbari, how do other is it was it manufactured a long time ago and that's how other people know about it or what i don't know it doesn't maybe at least a thousand years ago maybe it could be Could be from way back then quite possibly, um, when Gideon comes in and he's dressed in the suit, you know, my first thought was what he's the one, he's the one, right?

[39:32] We're going to play this whole thing all over again. Right, right. That was, that was a great scene, but I just love, I loved him every episode. I love Gideon a little bit more. Sure. He comes up with a plan and Gideon. The people back, you know, the doctor in Matheson and Eilerson are like trying to figure it out. And all of a sudden, Eilerson thinks he's figured it out. And he won't tell Matheson. Okay, now, Jeff, let me ask you. Captain of the ship is below deck dealing with the situation. Who's in command? Yeah, Matheson. Okay. Matheson's like, tell me what's up. And he goes, and Eilerson's response is, trust me. And then he runs off. just do what i tell you to do and trust me you were in the military jeff does that fly no especially when dude isn't even military yeah he's not even like a part of it there's no way you know maybe though matheson was telepathing him and knew what the plan was fair but that that whole scene was so disappointing he's down there in his suit they're hearing everything that's going on and he says the air is human and for like six hours they're like, what could he mean by that?

[40:50] Come on. I know what you meant by that as soon as he said it. Blow the freaking airlock. He's in a suit. But, like, in for reals, because it comes back where he's leaning back, being like, come on, guys. And this, hey, suit, how much time do I have? It literally took them over half an hour. And I'm just like, literally, when that would be done, I'd be like, hey, guys, we need to sit down and have a chat. You're fired.

[41:14] I need you to read my mind a little more often, telepath. Like, jeez, man. Come on. Jeez. I did like this. When they finally figured it out and they depressurized the deck, everyone's getting blown around. Around everyone's getting blown around except for gideon who's literally just standing there like i don't know if he just had like mag boots on or something but like he wasn't even michael jacksoning it like he he was just standing there like there was nothing wrong he's like i'm captain freaking gideon what you got i gotta tell you i'm watching the scene though and the science, in me starts kind of going off and i'm pretty sure i'm right about this like i'm pretty sure Sure. You depressurize a deck like that in space. What we see is people gasping for air. Yeah. No, no. Your body is trying to explode. You have pressure inside of your body and you're trying to explode. And they're all like, how long can the human body live without oxygen? Dude, that's not the thing we're worried about here. There is a reason why we have a pressure suit. Yeah.

[42:15] So you don't go, I'm not saying you're actually going to explode. I don't think people explode if they get spaced. space but that's that's like what like everything goes you you got like 30 seconds in the vacuum of space and that's what they were actually exposed to not three or four minutes right of just no oxygen yeah and wells being able to be like i'm gonna stumble around and go like do these things yeah i was and this is one of those things where i was just thinking i was like you know for all the science accurate stuff that they went through with babylon 5 to come to this one i'm like you know, I suppose I could be wrong on something. Maybe there's something that I'm missing, but I'm 98% sure. And I'm, I'm in this world a little bit. Like, I don't think so. Like, but maybe it's a thing where like, you know, they just had one little door open to vent it. And they were still actively pressurizing the space at the same time. So there was like this, I don't know. We could.

[43:10] Headcanon the thing together if we wanted to in some way maybe no i think i think it was just their science their science advisor was um at lunch yeah when this scene was being filmed is is my thought so the the climax of the whole thing where wells is stumbling around and he finds you know he sees gideon there and he takes the thing and he knocks him over and he undoes the thing and he grabs his arm and he sucks everybody into the thing and then all of a sudden like Like Gideon's face pops up and he goes down and all of a sudden he's like, wait, I can't move my body. I had to rewind that scene and rewatch it from the beginning. Like once I knew what happened, I had to go back and see how they played it because they got me on that scene.

[43:53] It didn't make sense. At one point I'm like, is he taking the suit off of Gideon? Like what's happening here? Yeah, that's, I mean, I think that's exactly what they wanted you to believe in the moment. It what i and this is where i'm gonna knock steven first in his directing choice here um because you see this happening and then all of a sudden you just see like gideon's head like come over like his shoulder which you're like wait where did he if we saw him come from around the corner and would be like oh this this is actually a second suit this is a second person like it took me a minute to figure that out and i had to had to go back and re-watch that but that being said i loved this solution oh my god yeah i mean getting had his body and we find out later like would he have approved of of us using his body like that they put his body in a space suit sent it down and he propped it up to kind of look like him and he hid behind the bulkhead until wells came by and knocked him over knocked over a dead guy and then did and he just comes from around the corner and like locks the suit back and spaces the dude that was hard core it It was amazing. And I just remember watching it just being like, as I saw it unfold, I'm like, oh my God, this is intense. And I asked myself the question, I went through the thought exercise of, would he have consented to this? What do you think? Absolutely. I would have too. Yeah. Without a second doubt.

[45:15] Notwithstanding the fact that him, the visual of when he got shot, we're just going to assume the narrative is correct, that he chose to sacrifice himself for Eilerson. Yeah. If he made that choice, 100% he's making the choice to do this. Even if he didn't, 100% he's still making that choice. Unless he just doesn't belong in Earth Force. And then, like, oh, my God, I lost my mind. Okay, we spaced them. I'm like, oh, I can't believe this. And then, freaking cannon.

[45:46] Those guys ain't coming back. Unless they can survive in the vacuum of space. They can't. They got blasted. Well, that's like each little piece of Greenberg had a little piece of the alien or something. The alien can clearly survive in a dead body, which goes against what they told us earlier. Like, if you die, then he dies. Oh, no, the body was still alive. Oh, that's right. They said the brain was dead, but yeah, that's right. That's right. Okay. Which, which brings in a whole other, you know, question that I don't want to interrogate here, but I'm just like, you know, is, is that living? What would that person choose? You know, all those things. But in this case, it was super convenient. And this guy laying around like problem solved. So we get back, um, it's Mr. Wells. There's the decorators. They give him the new uniforms. And you mentioned earlier a real touching scene at the end. And Eilerson's trying to figure this whole thing out, right? Like, why would he do this? Why would he do this? He's having this, like, crisis of conscience, right? And then we see Gideon at his desk, which, first of all, did you see the chessboard he has on his desk? I actually didn't notice that. That was a cool-looking chessboard. You need to go back and look for it, all right?

[46:59] Cool-looking chessboard. But you mentioned how touching the scene was of Gideon going through all that. And I agree with one exception. Okay. The music was whack. Agreed. And it really, in that moment, more so than any other part of this particular episode. And it feels like we're getting that each week, Jeff. Like there's one spot of the episode where the music is so awesome.

[47:21] Counterintuitive to what's going on in the scene that it stands out like a sore thumb and in this one the music was like ominous not somber like something bad was about to happen it did it was like oh just wait for it just wait for it then we go out and it's like no no he's he's writing letters home telling parents that their kids are dead if this was many other sci-fi series you'd have the lone trumpet of sadness you know in the background of you know or whatever but no in this one and there was one other scene in this one during was it during the shootout but there was another scene where they did the whole thing where they silenced the dialogue again and just had the music play and it's like do not bring any attention to that music just stop so jeff i think we are at that spot where it is time to turn this and and pick out those messages you know those sci-fi messages. On our Stargate show, we use this litmus test of a hope for a better future.

[48:19] A mirror to society, or showing us how we can be better human beings to one another. That certainly is not an exhaustive list, but that's just kind of a litmus test we apply to it. Jeff, what messages did you pull out as you overanalyzed this really cheesy, campy episode of Crusade? It actually had a ton of messages in it. It was just overflowing. We talked about the one, And, you know, what's more important, the thing or looking good doing the thing? And I'm still going to land on yes is the answer to that one. But there's a couple of three specifically I want to pull out. One is that question of duty and sacrifice. Yeah. What to you is worth more than your life? I think, you know, you and I are fathers and I think it'd be very easy for us to say our kids, right?

[49:09] Oh yeah, easy. That's an easy one. Easy to say that, right? I haven't been put to that test. But to do what Greenberg does in this, and give it up for a dude who is admittedly just an annoying, awful person. Insufferable is my word. insufferable i like that word for yeah to do that and you know and then and then further to you know be okay to do that for everyone i think it's a great question to ask but beyond that what i thought was fascinating was eilerson's reaction through this whole thing he was so uncomfortable that greenberg chose to sacrifice himself for him like he was having an existential, crisis talking to anybody he could about like oh my god this guy like did this for for me like i don't understand but then at the end of the episode after he got space back blasted and into oblivion he was like well okay he did it for everybody too so i feel a little bit better about this and i just thought it was fascinating that difference between someone sacrificing for the greater and someone sacrificing for you. And so as much as we could ponder that question of what is more important to you than your life, I think another one is how would you respond if someone thought you were that thing that was more important?

[50:34] How would you carry that? And I don't know. I think, I think I would, I would have a really hard time with that. That's just, that's a lot. That's a lot to carry. And we saw that in here, how Eilerson really, really struggled. Another thing I saw, and we just talked about that, writing letters. This is a thing that people don't talk about a lot. I talk about this quite a bit. I have a couple episodes in Starfleet Leadership Academy about this, but leadership is hard.

[51:00] And leadership is lonely. If you are captaining a starship, you make life and death decisions every single day. Right. And we have a lot of jobs like that. We got law enforcement, military, things like that, where you make a choice and lives will be lost. And that's hard to do. And yes, you can get input from people around you and thoughts, but you're the one making that decision and that call. But it's not just those jobs. You could be the shift lead at McDonald's and something happens. Dude comes in with a gun and is robbing the place. You make decisions where people's lives are on the line and it's on you alone. Yeah. But I, I loved the way they shot Stephen first again, shown in the shined in this scene. The lighting was a little dark. He was all alone. The shot was kind of tight on him as a, you know, as he was dictating the letter. Letter he i felt so lonely in that moment for him of like alone he has to be the one to reach out and so i think for me that message is acknowledging that but also acknowledging that he did it it.

[52:13] Would have been so easy for him to just give the stock letter you know this person was a hero and highly decorated and he started he actually started with that where it's just kind of you know this time and this date and these things then he's just like and he was a hero and you know if you need anything like reach out like i'm here and it was just like watching him melt in that moment was like that that's leadership yeah but i think my favorite message in this was it not everyone is what they appear to be oh come on now all right a little jacar for you but i and i actually have the dude's name the fashionista's name i have it down here in my notes his name was kevin of course it was exactly of course he was kevin but let's take kevin who my note on him is uh this is such late 90s gay coding sure like just oh i mean yeah through today's lens it's like oh my gosh this is rough but to take this guy who's only played as a joke you know i mean you can even take that that you know that ugly piece away and just say he's kind of a punch the whole thing, even Gideon playing off of them, you know, if they stay here much longer, I'm going to have to kill them. Ha ha ha. It's whatever. But in that moment where he's like, dude, I have this skill. I have this very specific set of skills and this skill is noticing lines and connections and things. And what I'm seeing is this chain of life. I love that this illustration, this was an illustration of diversity.

[53:41] The magic and the power of diversity and beyond those things, you just notice acknowledging the depth of humanity of experience that everybody brings to the table and that any input or any eyes on a thing could bring value. My first reaction was what in God's name is this designer doing on the bridge while Matheson is reviewing mission tape, like what is going on? And then it's like, Oh, because he's amazing. amazing and he's brilliant and he brings more to the table than designing stupid ugly uniforms that are contrary to the whole mission of the excalibur i don't know that's how you really feel jeff yeah i don't have feelings there at all or anything but no i think this this uh episode had tremendous messaging throughout it did you catch anything that uh that i didn't talk about well a lot of what you caught as well let's start with the eilerson bit you know eilerson had this disconnect between what his brain knew and what these things have that he's he's never he he's never experienced for these these they're called emotions right like an inner conscience like like it was new to him and there was this this hard disconnect and and for for uh greenberg and and he couldn't make sense of it and it just it why would he do that for him it it just didn't, And you know what? He's right.

[55:11] It doesn't make sense. Why would anyone go and put their lives on the line and jump in front of a bullet for another human being?

[55:18] That's not a family member, not a friend, a complete stranger. The most you have in common is you happen to be born within the same borders.

[55:26] Why would you do that? It doesn't make sense. And that, Jeff, especially in a country where it's a volunteer military, that's why the folks who serve, Jeff, I'm including you in this because you served, are a special breed of people that deserve our respect and our honor. It's not something I did. And if I could go back and do it again, maybe, maybe I would. Maybe I don't know. I don't know. But I just found talking about like a mirror to society, like, yeah, that is the disconnect. And it doesn't make sense.

[55:58] And that's why we honor them. That's why before every sporting event, we say, hey, if you're a veteran, if you served currently or in the past, please stand up, you know, and we honor our military veterans here. But I really want to dive down. The one that really stood out to me and the one that I love the most is the one you were really just talking about. With Kevin. With Kevin. You're right. He was a stereotype. He was a gay decorator.

[56:20] That's what he was. They completely wrote him off. He's just that guy. You know, he's an intruder. Yeah, Gideon was literally going to kill him. Like, he just didn't want him there. However, as a direct result of his skills and the special way that he sees the world, we found the answer to the problem. He saved the day. He did. He did. He was completely discounted by the crew, written off as an annoyance, maybe even a weirdo. And that's certainly how he was being played. Yet without him, they likely would not have figured it out. You know, Jeff and I, I'm reminded, reminded of this great illustration of the body. You know, the body needs all the parts.

[57:00] You know what I mean? You need your hand, you need your arm, you need your shoulder, you need your back. Okay, well, you need your butt, you need your toe, you need your knee. Like there's different parts of the body and it all makes up this great society of who we are. Now, as far as how he was portrayed, I said it before, I'll say it again, I'll reiterate. It's not okay to go in and portray that for laughs. You know what I mean? Like it's just not. It was a joke back in the 90s. In many ways, it's still a joke today, and that's not okay. We shouldn't be portraying that as such. I will also say, in my experience, I am speaking solely of me, all right? Every time I have met a man, particularly a cisgendered man, okay, who is far more effeminate than the normal, ordinary, everyday, average man, all right, which this guy was. Was that person has always turned out to be part of the LGBTQ community.

[58:02] OK, with the exception of one time, every other circumstance in my life, because I know people who act like him. It shouldn't be played for laughs. Some of those people are my friends. Yeah, most of them are acquaintances. I'm sad to say I should take the time to get to know them better. But my my point being talking about the mirror to society, like how he portrayed these folks portraying it for last. Not OK. It's still kind of accurate. It rang true for a reason. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, and, and in saying that he was discounted and he certainly had a unique way of seeing things a way that Matheson didn't see it. He didn't see the lines and how things connected and went through Matheson looks at him and he says this, and this blew my, blew my mind even more when I thought about it. But Matheson's like, why are you here? And Kevin says, well, in a crisis, I can't stay in my quarters. I have to help. I have to be part of it. And you know what? That speaks more to his character as a human being than the way he talks or the way he holds his hands in his wrist or his personal preferences or the things that he likes to center his life around. In fact, he's like, no, something's going on. I can't sit by and just let this happen. I've got to be a part of it. And I've got to lend whatever I can bring. And you know what? He didn't bring anything that wasn't him to the table.

[59:25] 100%. Yeah. You know, and that's what solved the freaking problem. And so if I, if I say there's a message here, the body needs all its parts. I'll go back to that phrase and we should celebrate that. And we should not write those, those parts off when people come out just because they seem a little different than us. Yeah. They're amazing. Amazing folks. Folks, people are valuable because they're people, Jeff. Period. That's it. Period.

[59:53] So those are the ones I got. I like that. I want to take what you said and just twist it a tiny bit, and that is the body needs all the parts that it has, right? Because not everybody has toes or thumbs or things, and that's fine. They don't need them. They don't have them. But the parts that the body has, it needs. And what we need now, Brent, is for you to do the fun part of this whole part of the show. We're creating the 100% accurate, immutable, objectively correct ranking of Crusade, the entire series of it here in one fell swoop. Our current top five.

[1:00:31] Has two episodes in it. In number one is The Long Road. And in number two is War Zone. Brent, you get to place appearances and other deceits. Where's it going to go? Yeah, this is going to be our new number three. It's going to go at the bottom of the list. And rightly so. But I'm going to emphasize that does not mean that I did not like this episode. I liked this episode. I would watch this episode every time it comes on TV. I saw it twice. I loved it both times. Cackled my way through it. It's so good. It's so fun. It's just war zone and long road are better episodes, but I enjoyed this episode. Even, even if you were bored, sorry, Jeff, not through the whole thing, not through the whole thing.

[1:01:12] But I'm not going to have a chance to potentially be bored by it again for a little while, unless it happens to just show up in my streaming feed or whatever, because Brent, that's it for appearances and other deceits next week. We're watching an episode called the memory of war for the first time. We haven't seen these episodes. We don't know anything about them other than the order we're watching them in is probably upsetting to someone out there. And sorry, that's a you thing, not an us thing. So, Brent, why don't we dive into our game where we like to guess what's going to happen based on the title alone. What do you think the memory of war is going to be about? Well, if we're talking about memory of war, this is somebody dealing with PTSD, possibly.

[1:01:55] Okay. Or we're back to the DROC. And there's like some callback or oh there it is there it is there's there's fallout from the vorlon shadow war from so this is five years after babylon 5 gets done and that was a year before that so this is like six or seven years ago um there it's something to do with the drach the memory of the war it's going to be a callback to that uh possibly somebody dealing with some PTSD coming out of that or Drock doing something coming out of that. That's my thought. How about you? There's going to be a Matheson episode and it's going to be his memory of the telepath war. Oh, Brent, how many, how many times have I predicted the next episode is going to have something with the telepath war? Uh-huh. Apparently I'm not going to stop. See, but you're saying that the telepath war has already happened. Yes. That's how a call to arms started was, Hey, this thing happened to the telepath crisis. Crisis and then in war zone yeah war zone when he set up for math like he's a telepath where there's new rules for telepaths after that whole unpleasantness we had was that the war though i don't i think i think they're trying to minimize it now they're trying to retcon like well maybe.

[1:03:08] You know what it was probably jms got so sick and tired of hearing people ask about the telepath war that he's like no i'm gonna tank the whole thing i think it was more jms was like i'm really sorry about byron we're just gonna minimize this whole thing and we're gonna find out brent right here next week thank you all for joining us if you're watching us if you're listening to us thank you if you haven't already subscribe wherever you're listening or watching leave Leave us a rating and a review. We might even read it right here on the show if you do so. And the best thing you can do, the thing that will mean the absolute world to us, is if you share this show with someone who either hasn't seen Crusade before or hasn't seen it in a really, really long time, or even someone who watches it all the time and loves it and just wants to relive that for the first time experience. So until next time, we're going to go ahead. Yeah, Brant, what's up? You know what's the worst feeling in the world? oh i totally know the worst feeling in the world when you pull like that little piece of skin like next to your nail and then it catches every time you put it in your pocket hurts like a son of a gun where are you going i don't know.