Babylon 5 Full Series Wrap Up

[0:00] Music.

[1:07] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin. And I'm Brent Allen. You know, about two years and change ago, Jeff and I were two veteran Star Trek nerds that decided to team up and watch Babylon 5 for the very first time because we somehow missed it 30 years ago when it first aired. And now we've done it. We've done the whole series. We've done all the films. We've done the spinoffs. We've done the whole thing. Jeff, listeners, viewers, welcome to the Babylon 5 for the first time series wrap up. Here we are. Here we are. Brent, we are 30 years too late to this, as you said, but some stuff happened and we decided to watch this. Why did you – like, you know, people know the origin story of our show where I had a plane in the background and reached out and we connected and whatever. But, like, why did you say yes? I didn't come to sci-fi as a genre until later in life. I was in my mid-20s. I was living overseas, had nothing else going on, right? So –.

[2:21] In many ways, that's why I missed so much of this time period, this 90s time period that really I grew up in, right? So I caught up with Star Trek, caught up with Stargate, and those kind of became like my bread and butter. Did Battlestar Galactica and kind of dipped my toes in here and there. Babylon 5 was one of those things that wasn't really on my radar until, I don't know, three or four weeks before we kind of hooked up. Like it was that soon. And I had heard about a show that Star Trek had supposedly ripped off.

[2:55] Not my beloved Star Trek. We would never do that. Right. And come to find out it was Babylon five. And, you know, I didn't know the whole story. I didn't really know what was going on with it, but I was really intrigued by, well, did they, it was like, I was just curious. I was intrigued. And within, for me personally, Jeff, it was probably a six-day span. The name Babylon 5 crossed my media feed. It just crossed my brainwaves no less than 12, 15 times. Wow. Yeah, like it was just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, one of them actually has to do with you. You don't even know this part. You were a guest on the Trek Profiles podcast, John Krikorian. Yeah. Our good friend, John, who's helped us out. I was listening to your episode because I was vetting you for a thing for some stuff. But I was listening to your episode, and your episode is right close to Norman Lau's episode.

[3:56] And I wound up listening to Norman's episode. Well, him and John really got into their whole talk about Babylon 5 and all this stuff. And they had like a whole separate thing about Babylon 5 that they wound up doing. and it was that sort of really started the snowball for the whole thing but i was listening to norman's because i i found him like right close to yours when i was looking for yours that's cool, But yeah, that's, that's really what it was. And then when you sent out like a, Hey, I think I should document this. I'm going to watch this for the first time. I think you should document this because from the, the other side of this is coming out about a beat me up. I'd said to Matt, my coast at the time, like I'm tired of doing podcasts where I watch what somebody else has done. And I talk about what they've done. Like I want, I want my show to be my own full creation, you know, and we're kind of, I was kind of looking at what that all looked like and what that meant.

[4:46] And, you know, I told Matt, I was like, yeah, I'm looking at going into this battle. And he's like, what are you doing? You said you don't want to do this anymore. It's like, yeah, I know. But look, it's only 110 episodes. It's real quick. We'll be in and out. And I'll just move on. And it's, you know, it's something I want to document. Well, you know, here we are. So that's my personal getting into this show. And, you know, you and I had, we'd had a couple of episodes we guested with together and had some pretty good camaraderie. I trusted your voice with stuff. And, you know, we'd ran the test episodes and it seemed to work. Okay. So it didn't suck. How about you? You know, I, I was in sci-fi from the day I came out of the womb because my mom was a sci-fi nerd. And so like, I just grew up in all of it. And I remember when Babylon five came out, it just, I was part of that group. It was just like, Oh, cheap knockoff star Trek, you know, here, here it is. I don't know. And I remember at one point giving it a watch and saw Walter Koenig on there. I saw Bester had no idea who he was. But I just saw him on it. I was just like, oh, for real? Look, this is how desperate they are. And it just didn't look very high quality compared to some of the other stuff that was out there. And so I just had like this negative view of it overall.

[5:57] But as I wandered the world and did my stuff and whatever, I found that people who liked Babylon 5 freaking loved Babylon 5. And so it always stuck there. And I always thought to myself, like, I need to watch this. I need to get in. And I can't tell you how many times I tried watching The Gathering and I just either couldn't get through it or I got through it and just didn't pick up. I remember really clearly back in 2014, I was traveling quite a bit when I was working in pro wrestling, flying around to different shows. And I downloaded The Gathering onto my iPad to watch on the plane and I fell asleep watching it. Probably more because of the travel and everything else, but it just never quite hit for me. So then it literally did fast forward to, I know I've told this part of the story a lot, but when I do my day job work and I'm actually just work working and not in a meeting, I like to have something playing in the background.

[6:54] Had what was then HBO Max. I'm like, oh, there's Babylon five. I'll watch it in the background because then even if it is what, you know, the, all the stereotype, horrible stuff I thought it was no skin off my nose, right? It's just a background thing. And immediately like, I was like, oh my God, there's something to this. And I tweeted out from my Starfleet leadership Academy thing. It blew up. We connected and, uh, and here we are. And again, we tell you, we did the test episodes. Didn't suck. Yeah. And it turns out, actually, I think it's, you know, here's the thing. I have said this several times before, and I think the best advice I can ever give somebody who wants to start their own show is figure out what you would want to listen to as a person and then make that show. And this show, I can truly say just from my own standpoint, and certainly I'm biased and I fully own that, this is the show I would have wanted to listen to going through this. Totally. You know, the way we did this, the way things happened, the phenomenal feat that you and I were able to accomplish mostly through the help of the great community out there. Yes. To stay in the bubble, the spoiler free bubble and really walk into Sleeping in Light with no knowledge of what was going to happen. You know, also walking in and what, five minutes in, we're going, of course, that's what this is about.

[8:17] How did we miss that? You know? So, yeah, it's been an incredible journey so far. It has. And, Brent, I put together a video package. You did. To highlight some of our journey. So I'm going to play that right now. And it's a couple minutes long, but it's just going to chart our journey. And I hope everyone enjoys. Before you do that, Jeff, I just want to say, and I haven't seen this video yet. I'm very eager to see it. But one of you and I have often talked off Mike when when you're in podcasting, you know that there's this kind of rule by the time you get to like episode 50, especially episode 100. You look back on those early episodes and you go, oh, I'm interested to see exactly what this is going to be because I haven't gone back and watched our old episode yet. Yeah, I spent some time in those old episodes getting these clips and I was just like, oh, my God.

[9:14] Yeah, yeah. So let's hope I see if I know how to use these controls in StreamYard. And here we go. We have the rule of three. We get three Trek references a piece per episode. So, Brent, choose your spots carefully.

[9:29] It's like a game. That's what I like about it. It's like I'm not going to apologize for making Star Trek references.

[9:36] I'm just I'm not going to do it anymore. We will. There are seeds planted in every episode. You know, here's the thing. I'm going to start holding you all to this because you're not the first person who I've heard say this. I've heard lots of people continue to say this because if they don't come back and circle back to some of these threads that we're picking up as first time viewers. Well i'm not gonna be mad at y'all but i'm gonna shake my fist an episode that has no message can be redeemed by being a good episode this episode did neither and therefore is not a good like jeff i i i seriously hated this episode wow giving this one no star furies so the vorlons being the last first ones that are actively here have created this process to go and confirm that who the chosen one is is the chosen one cool awesome none of that's our problem this solved the thing that's in jms's head like you could have just told me hey they're the chosen one and i would have been like cool but instead we got this it is incredibly hard to not skip ahead uh and binge through this show amazing speeches that we got we got more than one um i i had to bleep myself in the reaction video because I didn't even realize I said something and it was like I dropped a full on F-bomb like I was like that's the most bad.

[11:03] Speech I've ever heard pretty much my complete thoughts people are going to rip into me in the comments I don't even care because this was objectively.

[11:11] An awful episode amazing it was so good so good are we sure this wasn't the series finale right Right. Right. Jeff, I'm going to I'm going to simply say this. This is by far one of the best hours of television I have ever, ever watched in my life. Period. Full stop. This whole series, everything has led to that moment.

[11:40] Music.

[12:38] And it changed us it did yeah quite the journey right there that uh that we went through you know i i'm i'm i'm like about 50 pounds lighter now than i was when we first started that show, i was like oh my god wow you you and me both like it's like.

[13:00] Um you know the the wild thing is jeff i'm pretty sure i can place with i'd say probably 90 accuracy which episodes each one of those clips came out of yeah probably probably good lord jeff that's you're gonna end it on that right there holy you know i was looking for clips for everything and i figured the only way to end it is with sleeping in light and i found that clip at the end and it end with avonava's piece you know it changed everything and it changed us and i couldn't think of a more appropriate statement this journey we are we're different people than And we were when we started this, this show has had that big of an impact on us. I think I, I would agree. And you know, Jeff, I've, we, we've often talked and I'll, I, I don't mind saying this cause it's going to sound like we're tooting our own horn on this or, or something like that. The, the story of Babylon five for the first time was not the story of Babylon five, right? It was the story of Brent and Jeff, you know, like it was, it was our ups and downs. And what I love that you did in that video package, it really reflects it. There were times when we were really high and there were times where we were really low. And it was a conscious choice that you and I both made to allow ourselves to be on the roller coaster, to be on the ups and downs. Far more ups than there ever were downs.

[14:23] And the places we were down just made the ups that much better. Yeah. You know, and this is it's broadened my worldview. You it's broadened my sense of what sci-fi could be um star trek is no longer the standard for me that's it that is it right there i could not agree more could not agree more there are things that star trek is amazing at and does beautifully and i'm not going to take any of that away from star trek but when it comes from what we used to call a star trek message mm-hmm, Babylon 5 delivers in such a stronger, more meaningful way than Star Trek ever has. Yeah, and it delivers in a different way. I don't want to take away from Star Trek. Don't get me wrong. I love Star Trek. I'm still a Star Trek guy. I love Star Trek. But this is a show that I am so grateful for being in my life. Absolutely. There are not a lot of shows where I say I'm glad that that show was a part of my life. I'm glad to have seen it. I'm glad to have watched it. I'm glad to be able to go through it. But this one, and this is one we talk about. This is one we discuss. This is one that helps write life philosophy. This is a show that unites folks.

[15:42] And I'm, yeah, I'm just, I'm so grateful for this journey that we've gotten to go on. And for all the, all the, all the heel turns, the face turns, the, the ups and downs, the good parts, the bad parts. Like I'm, I'm so grateful for all of it. It's been such a fun ride. Absolutely. And it's like, yeah, it's changed our worldview, our personal view. For me, it's evolved my faith in ways. Like, it's just had a profound impact on both of us. And I'd be remiss at this point, too, if I didn't. We thank all of you watching and listening a lot. But, like, you were a part of that journey and that change as well. And so, I mean, thank you for sticking with us through it. But also thanks for just being around us, you know, and being a part of the whole thing for us. It was an incredible journey, and I couldn't imagine taking it without all of you. And we've said all the time, the Babylon five fan community is the best community we've ever been a part of. And we truly mean that when we say that. We truly, truly mean that. And we're glad to be a part of it now. Exactly. We're lurkers. It happened. Yeah, there we are. There we are. You know, Jeff, we've we've done a lot of talking around this show.

[16:54] Five seasons of Babylon five, a sixth season. If you count crusade, we've done lots of these wrap ups before. One of the things we like about with these wrap-ups is we like talking about our favorite stuff. You know, favorite stuff from the season, favorite stuff. Here we're talking about the whole series, the whole franchise, all of that kind of stuff.

[17:13] We're wrapping this whole thing up, so we're looking at this. This is from the gathering all the way through to the road home and everything in between, right? Jeff, I'm curious. Let's talk favorite characters. There's different levels of character, okay? There's the main cast, DVD cover type folk. And I don't know if we count Keffer. He was a DVD cover guy, but whatever. He got blowed up on the DVD cover, which is awesome. He did. But there's that guy. And then there's the recurring characters, which I think we're going to qualify that as just somebody who showed up more than once. Okay. Okay. But not on the DVD cover. And then there's the one-off, the one-off characters. Jeff, I want to find out who are some of our favorite characters. Let's start with one-offs. Who is your favorite one-off character through the whole series of Babylon 5? Dude, this was such a hard one because there are so many that come through. And I know everyone watching right now is waiting for me to say Walker Smith. And, I mean, you wouldn't be, I mean, I absolutely did consider him. But really thinking about it, like the person who, the one character I enjoyed seeing, was perfect in the role and had an incredible impact on the show was emperor turan in the coming shadows he was great fantastic how about you, I'm picking a guy that in this character is a guy.

[18:42] This is a guy that played the role so well. Ironically, it's a role that he pretty much plays in everything that he's in ever. But he played it so well, and it was written so well, and it was done so well with the rest of the cast that I sat back and I went, I want one of that guy in my life. And I'm talking about Rabbi Koslov. You are, yep. You know, Rabbi Koslov is, is my, when I think about the one, the, the, the one off characters, man, I could have used more of him. But gosh, I just, I loved him so much. He, he was like my dude, my dude. Now, before we get out of here, Jeff, do you have any like honorable mentions of these characters? Cause like, like I, there, I had a list going of trying to figure out who it was and I boiled it down to Rabbi Koslov. Did you have any honorable mentions for yourself? Well, Walker Smith, of course, would be one.

[19:31] Whatever Jeffrey Combs' character's name was went in eyes. Mr. Gray. Mr. Gray, that's right. Mr. Gray, yeah. I thought he played that to perfection. It was so well done. There was the big dude in Gropos who just kind of like hugged all the- Tiny, yeah, there you go.

[19:51] I loved him in that episode. And even in that episode, again, Franklin's dad was a great one. I mean, I could go on and on. There's so many great ones, but those are the ones that pop out for me. Top of mind. What are some of your honorable mentions?

[20:04] David Warner. I don't even remember the name of the character, the Holy girl guy, you know, David. I mean, we, we spent a good deal of time talking about how a single actor can elevate the entire thing. You know, um, he, he was a big one for me. He's like a one-off actor though. I don't think his character brought very much to the, I don't know. That's just me. I think there was an episode that, that hit both you and I really hard. Um it just stands out and the performance couldn't have been done by anybody else other than brad dorif playing brother edward absolutely you know what i mean like holy cow come in and steal the show brad friggin dorif man like sheesh yeah but those those are the two guys that that uh bubble to the top of my mind real quick those are good ones those are really good ones what about recurring characters now i had such a hard time with this one like a real hard time and who i landed on ultimately and it's i'm glad that you what you just brought up is a good segue brother theo i loved every second he was on the screen and i would have loved more of him also what was your favorite i have honorable mentions on this one too but who is your favorite recurring i want to give you my honorable mentions first and then i'm gonna give you my guy okay all right honorable mentions uh morden yeah morden was such a good character natoth yep i literally on my thing i said if i'm cheating it's natoth because that's like that's so easy but it but it's the good natoth not the bad natoth right.

[21:32] Um, Talon, I really dug Talon so much when we saw him. Naroon was always good. And in here's, here's a spoiler. Cause this isn't my guy. Zathras. I love me some Zathras. Love me some Zathras. But when I look back and I think of who was my favorite returning character, who, who was just the best character. Nobody say Byron. Stop it right now. It's not Byron, but you know who it is? It's Cartagia. Oh my God. Emperor Cartagia. The way that he played, what was that guy's name? It was, he had like two last names for, for a name. Like the way he played that character, that character was written so well. He was so evil. You wanted to stab this guy. You wanted this guy gone. I haven't seen a character played to such perfection until I saw Jeffrey, uh, Joffrey from game of Thrones. Yes. You know what I mean? I know he's a bad character, but my God, he's a character you love to hate.

[22:38] Cartagia is the guy. I love that because, like you said, not Byron. And one of the conversations we've had about Byron is, well, you hate him because you're supposed to hate him. But the thing is, Byron came on my screen, and I was like, oh, my God, not again. I never wanted Cartagia to be off my screen. I loved when he was there. I loved everything about him, and I hated him with every fiber of my being. He was, yeah, Cartage, that's a great call. I had, you know, Netoth, Bester. I loved Bester. That was a guy I still want that dive into him and want him to, you know, kind of a thing. But, yeah, there were some really good ones throughout the series. But I'm curious now, Brent, the big one, who's your favorite main cast character? If you follow the show for any amount of time, I've repeatedly said it's Ivanova. Yeah. And I love Ivanova. But I've also always said that if I were to be cast in the reboot, Londo is the character I would want to play. Mm-hmm. But when I sit back and I think about it and I think about it over the course of the entire thing and I think about what's going on, I think about the character that I like the best. Oh, I'm sorry. Let me take that back a little bit. The character that I relate to the most, the character I see the most of myself in and that I'm drawn to, the character that I'm rooting for every single time, the character that I just, oh, and that's me. That's me on screen right there. And you know who it is?

[24:02] Captain John Sheridan. No, not at all. No. It's not do you ever work under him no um uh veer i'm talking about veer kato i how do you not love veer kato and everything he's in from the from the from his opening opening deal where he's so like he's he doesn't even remember he's playing a video game with okay londo i'm gonna do whatever You know, to the man becomes a freaking emperor and we see him in sleeping in light at that dinner table around the table. And he, you know, he is the man right there. And he's able in the middle of that, he's able to still be soft and gentle and humble and and just exactly what the Centauri need in their leadership positions.

[24:55] They wrote him so well. And Stephen first acted him so perfectly like that. That moment after he killed Cartagia and he started getting drunk and everything. It was like the beginning of the fall, but he never fell. So many lesser people or characters would have fallen. Veer kept his head held high even as he was sinking. It's just an incredible balance of a situation like that. How about you, Jeff? Your favorite character. Main cast on the DVD.

[25:24] I started a lot with this one too. Of course, Dr. Franklin, season one, was off the list for me. in a big way. But again, like I try to think about like there's who do I connect with and relate to? Who do I aspire to be, right? I think that was a big part of this show is there were like Jakar is a person in so many ways I would aspire to. To to him season five, season four, season five, Jakar, not season one or two. Well, you don't you don't want bathrobe with the chest and, you know, the the girls coming out and most of them Centauri girls. I'm going to add to, you know, wouldn't I mean, you know, wouldn't mine necessarily. But I think I had a hard time deciding what like my criteria was going to be for favorite. And so what I decided to go with was who was the character who every time they came on screen, just about every time they came on screen, I was like, sweet. Like, this is going to be good. And then had a story that was engaging and pulled me through. And I mean, it's Londo.

[26:28] And so much, honestly, of what makes me love Londo as a character is post-keeper Londo. Or just pre to post, like the moment he accepts that keeper on. Because here's a person that, well, we talked when we were watching Crusade about Max Eilerson and how with his ex-wife, he still loved her so much and he hid it. Like he would take care of her, do whatever, walk out of her quarters and just be like, oh, my God, like I miss her so much. But never let her see that. That we talked about, that's real love, like deep, deep love. So he had that not just for Centauri, but for the galaxy. I'm going to come over here. I'm going to suffer quietly, alone, and no one will ever know. In fact, I'll be regarded as one of the greatest villains in galactic history, but I'm actually a hero. And it's fine that no one knows that.

[27:26] But what really did it for Mithlondo, ultimately, is Peter Juricic. Just his portrayal, the power, his understanding of who and what and why that character is even on screen was, I mean, incredible, incredible acting to the, I mean, to the point that like.

[27:44] The community so kind and bought us that cameo like i i can't well and we're listening to the autobiography you know jms read by peter i can't he's londo man like stop talking like some jersey dude and get the stank on it like right right just be malari he is a guy that i really have to wonder if jms didn't pull aside and say okay let me give you the full arc of your character from the beginning he had to have i mean because the way he played those early episodes of you know he's he's the the down and out cast off of the old republic just you know i forgot how to dance my shoes are too tight you know that that guy you know he just he just wants i would i doesn't mean anything it's i would give it all up for love to the over the top frustration you want to know what i want mr morden all of them dead you know to to watching him go through all of those pieces and the way that he the way that he can go so low as a character and to feel that out but also show the emotion every single time like you remember that there's that one scene jeff one scene when um he's on the ship and the the ship is they're doing those mass drivers where They're flinging the big asteroids and moons like at the planet.

[29:06] And the shot is him seeing his reflection in the glass as he's looking out.

[29:15] Didn't say a word, not a word. And it's the most masterful act of performance. I saw the man from the whole series. And that's saying a lot. I remember on my reaction, that scene, no words, nothing, literal goosebumps. Like I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe this. You know, we do a lot of stuff in our wrap ups and I'm sure, you know, we just talked about our favorite stuff here. I'm sure we have some ranking of some things that we're going to do here pretty soon, but I, Brent, would like to rank something we have never ranked before. Does it have to do with the character? No. I want to throw, can I throw something in on you real quick while we're talking about characters and ranking? Okay. Here's my question. I want you to think, and this is no slight to Michael O'Hare, but if you want to throw him in, that's fine. I'm going to make the assumption of Captain John Sheridan, Captain Matthew Gideon.

[30:07] Okay, those two guys specifically. And you don't have to name the whole thing, but if you were to think of your top five captains in science fiction, do either of those two guys crack your top five? Like has has this show done that work to become like dude that's a that's one of my guys right there the answer is yes um one of them would hit would absolutely hit my top five and i'm trying to think of what my top five would be right so like off the top of my head right i've got janeway and i've got kirk and i have uh admiral adama probably some other ones and uh and matthew Gideon. We have a section, a segment we're doing later. I won't say which one it is, but I will say that one of the things I had in there was that Gideon is a better captain than Sheridan. That's not a hard argument to make, actually.

[31:02] But I would also say their jobs are... What we saw from their jobs were also very, very different. Very true. Very true. But yeah. Do either of them crack yours? What does your top five look like? No, Sheridan, he not only cracks my top five, he cracks my top three. Really? John Sheridan does. he's so good. He's so well performed by, by Bruce Box. I mean, he, he just, he brought the entire show. To a new level when, when he came on and it wasn't just like his first episode out, like he, he, he had to get into the role a little bit, Matthew Gideon. I don't know that he's top five. He's definitely top 10. I loved, loved captain Gideon. He probably be close, probably close. But yeah, Sheridan Sheridan is, is by far just, I would, I would follow Bruce Boxleitner into battle.

[31:52] Fully believing we were going to win no matter what yeah you know like i just i would i would he just he's got that in his voice he's got he's that whole gravitas i i would follow him no problem i agree absolutely it's so much to love about him i i i have um i feel like season five uh hurt him tremendously well he wasn't a captain at that point but just him but but it shed a different light on his captainhood for me where like in, in putting, in putting the interstellar Alliance together and what that, in my opinion turned into was just really, I don't know. I looked at him very differently throughout the whole thing. And I feel like this is the thing with Picard in, in, in Star Trek. And they actually addressed this in the next generation of where he held himself separate and honestly a little higher than he did the rest of the people on his ship. Like he didn't Lord it over anyone. and it wasn't like some narcissistic, horrible thing, but he saw himself as a different and cut above. And I feel like looking back on Sheridan through the lens of a season five, I think he was kind of the same thing. Like he didn't, he wasn't one of the dudes, you know, like even though he kind of showed up that way a few times, like him and Ivanova telling jokes.

[33:06] You know, sleeping in the, in his office because they don't, they don't want to pay rent to the, to earth force and stuff. But, but it's still, it's his inner circle. It's Ivanova, you know, he's doing that. Stuff with and yeah and also i think when we talk about captains there's captain out in the world doing things and then there's, Star Trek, the motion picture, right? They put me behind a desk. I'm an admiral and now I'm flying a desk Sheridan. That's where he, that's where he would thrive as in something like that. Whereas a Gideon or someone else out there doing it day to day. Oh, okay. Back to the thing you wanted to rank. Sorry. I just, I wanted to know, cause I was, I was thinking about that. Yeah, that's a good question. I hadn't even thought about it really, but, um, but yeah, This actually is a thing that our community has asked us repeatedly to rank. Over the last six or so months, this has been something they've been crying out for. Brent, let's rank the season opening segments, the opening themes, and the credits. From our show or from Babylon 5 itself? From Babylon 5 itself.

[34:10] Oh, okay. All right, let's do that. So I queued these up so we can get a little refresher for them. So I'm just going to play through them, right? I'll play season one. And if we want to talk about it, we can. But let's do it. It was the dawn of the third age of mankind, 10 years after the Earth-Minbari War. This is such a good start.

[34:37] You know what I mean? Like this speech right here? Yeah. Gives you everything you need to know. peacefully. It's a port of call.

[34:42] Music.

[34:46] Home away from home for diplomats, hustlers, entrepreneurs, and wonders. Humans and aliens wrapped in 2,500,000 tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night. It can be a dangerous place, but it's our last best hope for peace. This is the story of the last of the Babylon stations. The year is 2258.

[35:14] Music.

[35:31] You know, we get into the whole thing about like JMS. I'm not going to say rips off, but pays homage to Lord of the Rings. It was the dawn of the third age. All right. Season two. All right. The Babylon project was our last best hope for peace. A self-contained world. He sounds long. Yeah. He doesn't have the gravitas of Sinclair here. A place of commerce and diplomacy for a quarter of a million humans and aliens. A shining beacon in space, all alone in the night. It was the dawn of the third age of mankind, the year the Great War came upon us all. This is the story of the last of the Babylon stations. The year is 2259. The name of the place is Babylon 5.

[36:29] Music.

[37:14] That's so good all right hey well real quick real quick okay let's let's just go through it let's rank those is which one's better season one season two so i'm gonna put season one above season two i agree i agree even though i like the the place where they're doing like the pictures and the names like that that was much better than i thought in the first one the first one was so it was it pulled you into the show you know what i and i never thought of this before but the music in.

[37:41] The first one is very different like immediately from season two the music takes a different approach you know much more uh you know or strong or whatever but much like in the mass effect series uh mass effect two and three has a they have defend you know defined kind of soundtracks but mass effect one has this soundtrack that's just so immersive and just brings you into this world of wonder and and science fiction and i feel like that's what season one's music did it was just like this it was big and it was mysterious you know and uh totally totally set the tone in a cool way i'll tell you what the season two opening had that the first one didn't that really it was just a single line it was the year the great war came upon us like that using that to define the seat the the whole season from episode one well before that ever happened like and you're just waiting for it like what's going on you know what that did for us though like all the time well it's this great war you keep talking about this is the great war is it the great war where's garibaldi's secret mission yeah exactly come on where is it all right season three the babylon project was our last best hope for peace.

[38:54] Music. But in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater. Our last best hope.

[38:55] Love a bonobo,

[39:18] Music.

[40:13] Yeah i mean when they when when she sits there and goes babylon five was our last best chance last best chance hope for peace best last whatever it is just it failed it failed you're like oh shoot and then she goes it became something more oh jeff this is above season two or season one i agree this is this is the best one so far i think like knowing what the season is and how like this opening theme tells that story but also like the the punchiness of the music Like, dong, dong, bang, dong, chong. I'm in. And especially with that visual, the destroyer coming through with it, I mean, that just punches you in the chest. Here's the thing. If I'm running across TV and I see, like, I'm clicking channels. I've never watched Babylon 5. I see that intro. I just happened to chop on it. I'm going to pause and watch that show. Totally. That draws me in. The first two didn't really draw me in. That pulls me into the show. In fact, I think season one is amazing in retrospect. Right? Like in the moment, it's kind of like, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me what this stuff is. All right, season four. My guess is you and I are going to separate on this one. Yeah. It was the year of death. The year of destruction. The year we took back what was ours. It was the year of rebirth. The year of great sadness.

[41:32] Music.

[42:46] I'm right alongside season three. Like that draws me in and it expands so much that it was the year of hope, the year of this, the year of joy, the year of sadness, the year. Oh my gosh, man. Kind of showing you all this stuff. It's coming. All right, Jeff, where do you put it? I put this one below three and I'll tell you why, as you consider. Okay. I think the VO, I liked the VO better in the season four. One, I liked the changing voices. I liked how it really spelled out the season. I mean, season three did that also, but this did so in a way where it just really generated a lot of curiosity. How can it be the year of, you know, peace, but also the year everything, we lost everything. How does all this stuff happen?

[43:27] But the music in season four, the big driving piece to me was that Marshall beat from the marching snare that just was driving throughout. The music on top of it, though, was good. It was good. Season three punched me in the chest with every bit of its composition. So for me, it's done.

[43:47] Exactly. It's the music that puts season three above season four for me. Are we each doing our own ranking or are we having to come to a consensus here? I think we, whatever, you know what I mean? It'd be cool if we came to a consensus, but also it's our show. I actually, I think, I think three, I think three is going to edge out for me. I really like, I was all ready to say season four. I like season four better. Oh, I was, I was, I was ready to say it, but yeah, that watching them side by side. That season three intro season four is great. Like, like there's, there's, there's season three, season four, just because there's nothing else. And then one and two, I agree. Like, like there's a, there are so disparate between those, between those two. But, but yeah, I think three, I agree with you on this one. Three edges it out. And I think like each one so far as trying to accomplish something different also. And so it's just, yeah, it's almost unfair to judge them against each other because they're, doing different things but we're going to do it anyway we're going to right because what would we be here without ranking stuff well we do definitive rankings that's what we do right all right let's do it season five.

[45:03] Music.

[46:27] What I want to open with on this one is that just that first open 2258 and cautious voice immediate chills, just, Oh, and the music kind of swoops underneath it with, and so it begins and it kind of works together. Just be like, and we're in, we're in. Here's the thing, just in the opening alone. And, and for sure, because of the voice, the, the clips that they chose, I felt all the feels, from the previous four seasons to where season five felt like a victory. God, and when you think about the story of the opening themes, this is our last best hope for victory, and then we achieved it. It happened, and that happened thematically and musically. In between, there was a lot of crap that happened.

[47:19] Jeff, for Brent, I'm putting number five first. So i i love that that just at the end here's the thing it made me feel good and if you can make brent feel that's what you win exactly so my so my thought on it is musically i think season three has the best and most powerful music on its own but also season three is a much more um, singularly focused season and that's not true at all right but it's just it's a it's a season of war and conflict what leads to it and how it and you know how it goes whereas season five.

[48:03] Really moved you through stuff musically it used i love the cut of the voiceover how they would overlap each other a little bit you didn't get a breath between anything and so it just to me it created the vastness of the story that's been created to date by just we got to rapid fire this stuff and the music was underneath it and supported it was very legato you know with a very wide open as it was going but then that big roll single stroke roll on the concert tom boom and then it's done chicka-tacong chicka-tacong i think it ended super super strong and the beginning did what it was supposed to do as much as i love three but i agree five is the best of all of them i'm gonna agree with what you said about three except for one thing yeah the music is powerful i don't think it's the best though no i like season five's music the best it again it what it did like what that music did and again you're here's the other thing in case y'all don't know jeff is a musician brent is a sound guy okay so there's that might be two very different reasons of how we're approaching and listening to this yeah i thought music like season five was like this one can go that boom boom boom boom boom boom like you can only take so much of that before you're like okay like this is heavy you know um that that other one man that that can carry you oh carry you well i think from a sound engineering.

[49:31] Standpoint season five is superior just because of the way like the music supports.

[49:35] The voiceover in an incredible way yes and i you know what you say that and and i sit there and think of it just from an engineering standpoint and i'm like.

[49:45] There there's more there's there's such an artistic flow and coordination to the way that season five has that, frankly, none of the other seasons gets. And I'm not knocking any of the other seasons. It's just they hit it on season five. And it speaks to the complexity of season five.

[50:01] So we're going to go. We're going to rank them. This is our definitive 100% completely accurate and immutable ranking. Final word ranking from top to bottom. Season five's opening. Season three's opening. Season four is opening a breath season one and then season two. And that doesn't mean that season two was bad. It's just in a ranking. Somebody's got to go at the end. So, right. I think we're agreed. We are. Look at that. We did. We didn't even have to do consensus. We just got there. So that is the opening title sequences, Jeff. Uh-huh. Well, those are fine, but we got to talk about the actual show. We're talking about the actual seasons themselves. ourselves.

[50:43] Let's rank the seasons real quick. Wow. Okay. All right. What do you got? Right. You just do your ranking. I'll give you mine. Go ahead. Oh, yeah. Cause you've got yours all baked and ready to go. It's ready. So, uh, give me a second. Oh, he doesn't have his baked. I didn't, I didn't. All right. Well, while you do that, I'll go then. Here's the deal. Uh, season one is the lowest of all the episodes of all the seasons for me, just because it's the world building it's it's where frankly not a ton happened but it's so integral to understanding the rest of the show like it it it carries so much of the load that the rest of the show doesn't have to carry it so it's it's a good season it's one of the better 90 sci-fi first seasons but it still had a lot of its hiccups and issues so the last one on the on the season is number one same number Four for me is season two. Same, same. The first half of season two mostly was...

[51:38] It felt more like just an extended part of season one. Granted, they had to reboot with a new captain coming on board and you had to figure that out and you had to reset some stuff there, but there was just that first half. And, and, you know, I completely understand why people would be watching our show kind of going along, kind of going along. Then you get to season two. It's like, okay guys, come on now. Seriously. Yeah. Say, my urge is just stay with us till the middle of season two and then we're okay. It's fine. Just stay with us till they're knuckle down. But I think season two, but I will say, And I remember saying this for season two, the places that season two hit, hit hard. Yes. And the places where they didn't just sort of. So I think like for me, I was between two and five being here next with two, same reason. And I think five, the same reason as well.

[52:25] It's in it. There's some stuff. You know, it's not great. I think for my actual ranking, I'm going to have one at the bottom followed by five and number four. And then I'm going to have number two in third. I'm just thinking of how I felt at the end of season two, which was, I mean, you don't get much higher and into it. Season two, season five, I felt amazing, but that was very much riding on the wave of completion and nostalgia. Interesting. I think of objects at rest and objects in motion, objects at rest, which are great episodes. But they were also like, hey, everything that existed before this, we're just kind of wrapping up and saying goodbye to as we move on to the next chapters in our life. And it was fine. But like on its own, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Whereas season two, I was just like, F yes, let's go hit play. But also, what did we have before season two? You only had season one. What did you have before season five? Season four. Season three. Well, yeah, it's going to obviously build on everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[53:28] But here's the thing, and here's why I just – so I'm placing number five at the third spot, in the third. You're – So we're just going to flip-flop on this. But I hear everything you're saying. And you're right. The first half of season five is inconsistent. Because there's some great in the first half. Oh, my God. Londo Malari is right there. It's episode two. And I'll still maintain. I think that the season five opener was the strongest of all five season openers. Agreed. I agree with that. Season four would be there for me, except it's so wrapped in the context of everything else.

[54:04] But here's the thing. That second half of the season, what they did with Garibaldi and the drinking and bringing everything back together and getting the Alliance up and running the fall of Centauri prime, getting into that story and really digging that out the drop. And, and, you know, it's almost unfair to, to mention sleeping and light, but sleeping and light is placed there. I know it was written in season four, but it was placed there. And that is a part of season five and it just tips the scale. Like I thought those, those episodes, the back half was so strong in season five, very strong in season two as well. Very, very strong. But I think I like the strongness of season five more than I like the strongness of season two. I think for the great in the second half of season five, you still got the Lanier stuff. You've got the halfway analyst shock stuff. You've got an episode I enjoyed, but a throwaway at psych or headquarters. Like you just kind of have some you've got you know pen and teller i mean day that was a great episode but like we filled half of it with this i think it if if i'm going to use the word inconsistent it applies to all of season five for me okay that's fair but the hits the big hits are massive huge and amazing but the lows are dude here's i'm just sitting back i'm thinking coming of shadows.

[55:26] Long twilight struggle like out of season two those two specifically pop to mind like holy cow holy cow great episodes so all right so i i'm gonna i'm gonna go with you on this we'll we'll put we'll flip flop those okay i i you you've said enough to convince me i'm with you on the it is still inconsistent as it goes through the highs are just so high they they overshadow the lows so i get that but i think the real question is is there's one in two is it three or is it If there's the one in two spot, is it season three or season four? Which one goes where? Jeff, what say ye? The number one is season three. It's okay to be wrong, Jeff. It's fine. The reason I say so, and this is, I know people don't agree with me about this at all, but I was so let down by the end of the Earth Civil War that like that's going to be, I mean, and I want to be really clear. I didn't not like it, right? Like it was just like, hey, this is great TV and I'm enjoying this, but it wasn't what I thought it could have been. And it was, especially after all the other stuff we did with the shadows. And then, then there's the low post shadow war of like, Hey, we're kind of figuring stuff out so that we can posture and get in position for the civil war. That was like an episode longer than the Minbari civil war. It's like, Oh, it's done. Look at that. Okay.

[56:44] Yeah. I, you and I are just going to be in different spots on this one. All right. We're just going to be in different spots on this one. I'm sorry. Into the five, those first six episodes of season four, that that mini segment right there is the it's the best six hours of tv i can ever remember into the fire that that the clip that you played earlier where i was like this is the best hour that came from into the fire i know it did i know it did absolutely and and, We get characters like Cartagena. Yeah, there is. You're right. There is that little blip in the middle of like six episodes, six, seven episodes. It's like, what the hell are we doing?

[57:19] And you are completely 100% correct to acknowledge that you are alone on an island about there, about how it all wrapped up with the Earth Civil War. That was masterful. And even taking off the table of the conversation of, well, when you realize what happened, how they had to compress everything and get stuff in. Even when you take that off, it was it was incredible mastery at storytelling and getting in what they had to get in and had Sleeping in Light played right there at the end of season four. I would have been happy. I would have been satisfied.

[57:55] 100%. I would have felt complete with the story. I'm glad we got season five. I really am. It filled in some some necessary pieces. But yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, we're there. Definitely that now that being said i would have really liked to have seen what would happen had season five been part of the plan the whole time and not gotten cut and not had to compress all of that you know like where they could breathe and let the earth civil war occur over more episodes and stuff like that you know so i know we're getting to it we're gonna rank we're gonna do we're gonna do episode rankings that's what we do uh but before that i wanted to pause yeah and let's just talk about some episodes we just straight up liked. They were just fun, enjoyable, may or may not have hit in a ranking anywhere. What are a couple episodes, Brent, that you just, just thought were cool and you enjoyed, um, I were without in parts one and two and Babylon squared. I got to put those all three. Yeah. You put those three together. Absolutely. They're just a great, a great way. And we're without in this. And that this one really is a considering the behind the scenes stuff. What happened with Michael O'Hare, the ability to let that rest for so long than to be able to bring him back in, complete that storyline. It's not the original intent in the original storyline, as far as you and I understand it.

[59:11] And to, to be able to craft this where it fits so well within the story to rewrite what happened in Babylon squared, because what, what we saw in Babylon squared was not what actually happened in war without end, but he wrote it in such a way that it works, you know, and now that is what actually happened. Right.

[59:28] So War Without End is so good and so great. And it's probably only topped by watching your particular reaction to it.

[59:41] I freaked out. I lost my mind. It was such a buildup. It was just like, and they slow played the reveal in a way. It's just like, oh, my God. Yeah. It's like he knew. JMS knew that I was waiting for exactly that. Yeah. Do you remember Knives? Yeah, that was the one with Jacob. Londo's best friend. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good episode. It was so fun. Yeah. It was great. Yeah. I really enjoyed that was when I was, when I started like kind of looking through the stuff and that one popped out and I'm like, we did not talk about that episode enough after it, after it aired. And no, you know what episode I'm going to, I'm going to do you one better. I'm talking about a fun episode. Okay. I cackled the whole way through. Love this episode. All things that was just as far as a one-off episode, probably my favorite one off of the entire series. Soulmates. Yeah, I figured that was coming. Soulmates. Oh, my God. I love that. You love that. It was so funny. Jane Carr, okay, played Lando's wife, Tamav. Tamav, right? Vomit spelled backwards.

[1:00:44] She was almost my favorite one-off character, and I really wanted to see her come back in season five. It just would have been perfect when he became emperor. Oh, she would have been so good. She makes a comeback in the books. Good to know. Yeah, has an interesting little arc. Good to know I'll never read. Right. Voices of Authority. Is that the one with Chicky? Yep. Okay. If not else, just for the line, you're about to go where everyone has gone before. Exactly. Exactly.

[1:01:15] I mean, Jeff, the trinity of episodes of Messages from Earth Point of No Return and Severed Dreams. Like i know i talk about that six it's season four but that three right there where where earth finally breaks away from or i'm sorry where battle on five finally breaks away from earth and we start on that road oh my god it was just and and sheridan's speech yeah through that hold oh my god it was so good so good yeah i remember i remember that moment so well because like my you know my daughter's mom even like who hadn't been watching this saw that speech and was like Like, oh, my God, that's amazing. Like, it was that powerful. And, yeah, that – Yeah. We could say – like, let's just round it up and say probably 12 hours of the best TV ever happened in Babylon 5, seasons 3 and 4. 12 would be conservative. Just saying. I think so. I would be remiss if I didn't bring up TKO here. So I love it. I knew you would. That's why I didn't, you know.

[1:02:19] Now, let me ask you a question. Just to clarify, are you really in love with the whole of TKO, or is it more – because for me, when I think of TKO, I don't even think of the Muta Doe and that whole thing. I think of everything that happened with Ivanova and the rabbi and how they were intercutting, and this whole thing was just something else that was happening. I don't even care.

[1:02:40] This is really where the episode, is that what, what it is for you? Or are you the whole thing together loving the whole deal? To me, it's the whole thing. I think that you could have taken the Yvonne of a story on its own and that's going to be a top tier story wherever you put it. Yeah. The Walker Smith, Mutado, Mutai, all that stuff is storytelling that I deeply appreciate and think is well executed and for what it is, but what brings it to the level that it is for me is that intertwining of the two stories and how, and just to be really blunt, how almost everyone who watches it says, oh, they're doing fighting and boxing. So it's dumb and I hate it. And they don't see, they don't look at the bigger picture and see, oh my God, this is brilliant and showing you two sides of the same thing in just a really seamless and beautiful way. I think it's an excellently put together episode. Um, a big one for me, intersections in real time. Oh yeah.

[1:03:38] Two guys in a room talking for the whole damn episode, and it was phenomenal. It was so great. Phenomenal. And one of them wasn't even a series regular. And not even a guy I could tell you his name. I couldn't even tell you. What else has this guy been in? I have no idea. This isn't Gold Madrid here. This is dude eating a roast beef sandwich or corned beef sandwich, whatever the hell he had. Going one-on-one with Bruce Boxleiter. Bruce Boxleiter. and not only holding your own, but elevating each other through the whole thing. My God. That's a great call.

[1:04:12] Jeff, you have your TKO. I couldn't get out of here. It's the thing I called for for, what, three and a half seasons? The redemption of Londo Malari. The very long night of Londo Malari is peak, peak television. Yeah, my last one I had was Cora's mother, Cora's father. I liked that episode. It's just fun to watch. It means nothing, right? Just plop it on and watch it. It's a good time. Dude, the way that girl space that dude at the end... Like, I did not think that was going to happen at all. And just that innocent smile on her face the whole time. Like, I just did the thing. And Bester's like, good girl, good girl. I'm so proud. Is it unfair to mention Sleeping in Light?

[1:04:52] So I started writing it out, and I have a couple notes where I'm like, this is cheating to say. It is. I had Natath earlier to say Sleeping in Light also cheating. It is, right? But you know what?

[1:05:01] So when I was writing out my notes, I'm like, yes, this is one I just enjoy and I love. But we had a clip of it in our video piece earlier. I had a little bit of the music in the intro and our council chambers is here. And in the chat, so many people were like, I'm already crying. Like I'm in tears and a hundred percent. So yeah, I enjoy it. But also like, I don't want to, I don't need an ugly cry just because like, I'm going to slap it on. Hey, you know what I want to do right tonight? I just want to like hold some Ben and Jerry's and cry, ugly, ugly cry, sleeping in light. Jeff, I got something for you that's not in our run or in our notes or anything. Okay. Going back to the favorite characters piece. Okay. We talked about favorite one-off characters, favorite recurring characters, favorite main show characters. Okay. I want you to think about actors for just a moment. And I think we would be incredibly remiss if we did not mention the single best and And perhaps most prolific recurring guest actor. I'm not even sure if we can call them a guest because they were in so much of the show. Wayne freaking Alexander on this show. Totally. How many? I mean, he is the Jeffrey Combs of Babylon five. Like the man just played everything. I almost say Jeffrey Combs is the Wayne Alexander of Star Trek. Whoa.

[1:06:23] And you're not wrong. You're not wrong. It's a good call, though. But I mean, it just you talk about a guy that came into a show and elevated it without any of the pub. You know, like people people wouldn't know him except for just being fans of the show. Yeah, there were a handful. It's in the chat with the council chambers and some. But Marshall Teague was another one who just I mean, just they were around and they got in so many roles in every role they were in was incredible. And they made the they made the episode better for being in it. Good call. I like you bringing that one up. All right, so, Jeff, this next piece is going to take us probably a bit of time. Okay. But it is that time. We have created the definitive, objectively correct, infallible, immutable rankings of the episodes within their seasons. But now it's time to take all 110 episodes. What? This is going to take hours. Are you sure? I mean, 110. They ain't got anywhere else to be. Let's go. I do.

[1:07:23] I gotta go to bed some how's this um what if we take the top five from each of the five seasons, okay instead of ranking everything out let's construct the top five of those top fives the top okay that's fair you take to take the top five episodes and we're gonna make a top five of the whole series there's no rule that like one episode has to come from each season i don't think there should be any rules outside of just we're gonna take the top top five you think five is good Yeah, I think that's great. I think that's great. For audio listeners, I'm just going to run through these really quick, and then we can get into discussing which of these are going to fall into our top five. Yeah.

[1:08:02] So season one from five to one and number five is chrysalis. Number four is TKO. The guts on these guys, right? Number three is the war prayer. Two is death Walker. And a number one is Babylon squared season two. Number five is the fall of night in the shadow of Zaha doom, a race through dark places at number three, the coming of shadows and the long twilight struggle leading the pack. Season three has ship of tears. And number five point of no return severed dreams. Zaha Doom and then we combined War Without End parts 1 and 2 to be in the top. Fair enough. Season 4, number 5 was The Long Night the No Surrender, No Retreat Intersections in Real Time Rising Star and Into the Fire is number 1 I have a feeling that's going to be a part of our conversation as we move forward In season 5 we have in 5th place, And All My Dreams Torn Asunder, In The Fall of Centauri Prime, Objects at Rest The very long night of Londo Malari and a number one sleeping in light. Jeff, you know what? I'm going to be really just looking at this list right here. I want to know how this is going to change for us into Babylon five for the second time. For real, for real. Because this was our first watch ranking, you know, like, and especially I like, like I look at season one and we had nothing else to judge those against.

[1:09:24] And it's so often when when fans are judging it's because they've seen the episodes multiple times they've seen the whole series multiple times yeah and they're thinking of it in scope of the entire thing we didn't have that and i'm really curious now that we are on the other side how that's going to change for us things look a lot different in a lot of it i think for us so yeah it's going to be.

[1:09:47] Jeff, we just have to do this one by consensus. We really do. Number five. Okay. I've got a list. I've got my list of one through five. Jeez, you are so much more prepared. Okay.

[1:09:58] Well, I actually have my list of one through 110, but you stopped me. You put way too much work into this, man. Like, wow. Okay. I didn't have videos to create or anything, so. But there's that. There's that. Oh, my God. So I'm coming in with no prep on this. So I think I'm just, I'm going to, is it easier to go top to bottom then? I don't know about that really. I'm let me just, I'm going to list out ones that stand out for me going through all of them. Can I propose something? Sure. Can we combine world without end one and two and Babylon squared? Sure. I'm, I'm for that. Okay. Yeah. So I'm just going to kind of go through. Because that makes sense. That makes sense. they're all kind of one thing so out of season one babylon squared is the only one i'm going to pull.

[1:10:50] For stuff than a long that is the correct error that's the correct answer it is and it's really hard for me to not bring no i i'm not i'm not that over the top long twilight struggle for sure out of season two i'm going to say i'm going to pull out in the shadow just to start and then down in oh my gosh i can't okay and then in season three severed dreams for sure zaha doom and four oh gosh they already have so many more than five so this is like i have to go through this whole process there's oh my gosh come on man this is so much fun for people to watch okay so right now i have one two three four five six seven eight okay so i'm gonna say in number five, I'm going to put...

[1:11:40] Intersections in real time i had long twilight struggle okay at number five so i i was i was thinking of putting that at number four i was gonna say so that's why it might actually be easier to go top to bottom because like it depends on you like i could say number four but i'm gonna put it up higher right um but uh yeah i um i see i actually didn't have intersections in real time i love that episode i think it's a great episode but when i'm looking at all of these jeff i think long twilight struggle for me, what I remember out of that episode. And Jeff tends to remember all the finer details. Brent remembers how it made him feel. That's just how Jeff and I are different individuals and different people. That, I think, was the first episode of the entirety of Babylon 5 that blew my mind all the way around top to bottom long twilight struggle. And I honestly, I remember Draw being a part of it, And I don't remember much else. And I can't wait to get back to it on the second watch. But, uh, uh, I just remember that was just such a landmark episode to me. Um, but it, it, the, the other four are just seminal rock episodes to me. So, uh, well from the top, right. And number one, the war without end trilogy.

[1:13:01] Is it though? Uh huh. Is it though? Did you put sleeping in light as the number one? It did because you can't. This one's not cheating. It is an episode and it deserves to have its place in the proper place at the very top. It is the best episode of the entire series because and you know why? Because you you it takes everything that happened in the previous hundred nine episodes and wraps them and concludes them all in this nice little bow package. This is where I can agree with you. We, going into Sleeping in Light, we had a laundry list of these are things that need to get resolved. We need answers to these things or we're mad. And it was, what, four minutes in and we're like, I don't care about any of this stuff. This whole series has been about the relationships between these people and that's all it is. And so I think just that being able to knock us off our high horse of like, you better give us answers to this stuff and accept this. yeah, sleeping in light at number one. I can agree with that. It was a master stroke in the seminal master stroke of the entire series. Here's the thing, Jeff. I don't even have War Without End and Babylon Squared at number two. Are you kidding me? What? Listen, I loved War Without End, okay? Seminal episode. It's number three for me. Okay. All right? It is number three.

[1:14:26] Great, great episode all the way around. How it wrapped everything back around. It did time travel the right way, too, Jeff. You don't see time travel being done the right way. It did it the right way. Yeah. Okay? Love that episode. So good. It was not as good as Into the Fire. It did not punch like Into the Fire. Into the Fire, man, almost Into the Fire carries a little bit of the same thing that Sleeping in Light did because Into the Fire is the wrap up of the entire Shadow Vorlon thing, which carried all the way really from The Gathering. I mean, it just carried the whole show and it brought that whole piece to conclusion and everything after that was falling action. You know uh in in that end of the and i and i've i've said it you've heard it be say at least twice in this show tonight and i'll say it again it is the single best hour of television i have ever seen in my life possibly barring sleeping in light but that's a whole different animal like that's it is that's a but but it to into the fire if you put up into the fire war without end the trilogy there.

[1:15:34] Personally, I got to go into the fire. I just feel like, you know, one of the things we look at for our rankings is which one do we just want to sit down and watch? Yeah. And like, I'll watch all three of those episodes. In fact, like just because it's a trilogy, right? I'm going to hold that up against the whole messages from earth point of no return severed dreams thing. Oh my God. As I say that, I might actually want to watch that trilogy more.

[1:15:59] It's a good set. It's so good. We still got number four slot open there, Jeff. Uh-huh. so i think like sleeping in light was the series finale yeah into the fire was also a series finale could have been yeah it wasn't that the one that were like this could have wrapped up the whole damn series it put a lid on everything it ended with a monologue of you know that was the this is the end of the third age and you know and kind of spelled things out um objects at rest it was also you know had this series had multiple endings to it and each one was very different in how it approached it right into the fire had what what what i what i liked and here's me talking into number two is it had some of the most incredible space battles that we've had it was it was exciting it was fun to watch even though i'm still disappointed in the whole we're gonna go get first ones to fight for us and hey they're over here and they have like two graphics of what they're doing but and then it moved into that and then it did the thing that we as people who enjoy star trek love to see in our science fiction and that's talking your way to the solution where they basically were able to talk down the vorlons and shadows there's a lot more to it obviously but it kind of had everything.

[1:17:16] Whereas, you know, objects at rest was more of the, you know, oh, it's just we're closing everything out and this is the thing and everything goes and sleep in the night was just, you know, punch you in the face, stomach and anywhere else to make sure that like, you know, you were emotionally impacted by this thing. So are you putting severed dreams at number three? No. What? No, I had war without end at number three with severed dreams at number four. Okay. Okay. Okay. And that whole list is so tight, so tightly packed. And you could convince me to, just like you did War Without a 1, 2, and then Babylon Squared, to go that trilogy all together. Because that is also really a single story. But Severed Dreams is the one that brings it all home, which is why I put that one in there at number four. But it also feels cheating to put multiple episodes in one slot. Well, it's our show. We can do whatever we want. Yeah. And then you have Long Twilight Struggle at number five. Yeah. And you know what we're missing? We're missing very long night of Londo Malari and fall of Centauri prime. And I'm missing intersections in real time. We haven't, we haven't decided on that one just yet. We're literally doing the impossible right now. You know what this is like? Seriously. Did you ever see the 1968 version of the movie Romeo and Juliet? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. There's a scene where, um, you know, spoiler alert for Romeo and Juliet folks. There's a scene where Juliet's, I think it's her cousin.

[1:18:42] Tybalt is killed but he was killed by Romeo her love and so she's just going like oh Tybalt oh Romeo oh Tybalt oh like she just can't figure out which one she's grieving over and I'm sitting here going like oh there's this episode and then there's this episode and then there's this episode and then there's this episode and I can't choose yeah that's what I feel like right now because this whole I mean it's unfair to say it really is unfair to stay top five but that's what we're doing so we've got to do it you know what i want to what i want to so i'm okay with the top four as is sleeping light into the fire war without end trilogy and severed dreams yeah in number five i want to replace long twilight struggle with the fall of centauri prime and here's why okay, They're linked. They are very linked, right? Okay. And Fall of Centauri Prime wraps so much of what was Londo looking at himself. It's the culmination of all of that stuff, and it places it in a time, you know, in the birthing of the Interstellar Alliance. So you have all, like, there is no clear-cut good guy and bad guy, whereas in Twilight Struggle, Centauri were the bad guys, big time, hardcore. And the only redeeming thing was Londo, you know, having some vinegar go down with his whole like, oh, I don't like that this is happening. But it still happened. He still watched it. And what Jakar said, you said nothing. You said nothing.

[1:20:09] In Fall of Centauri Prime, he said something silently. But, you know, he took it all on to do that. So I would like to place that one at number five. I can agree to that compromise. I like it.

[1:20:23] I don't think there's a way that I could disagree with that, not having said what I said about or having said what I said about Sleeping Light and Into the Fire. It's in that vein. So we're throwing in the seminal episodes and the ones that wrap everything together because they really pull it all together. Like, oh, it's such a great series, Jeff. It's so hard. It's literally, yeah, it is literally all, all of them. So what is the top five? Yes, that is the answer. What is the top five? All of it. So. It's like, if we can put War Without End 1, 2, and Babylon Squared together, if we can talk about messages from Earth Point and O returns, let's just say we're going to put, as our top one episode, all 110 episodes of Babylon 5 as a full. And again, that is the nature of Babylon five, Jeff, because the whole show is one story. This isn't, this isn't some episodic TV show. Like it's the whole show. It's the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Even, even though the off episodes that don't mean anything still mean stuff and still do lifting that other episodes don't have to do. So I just, all except for that one episode, the one about the night guy, the King.

[1:21:44] You know what i say that episode was just about the inefficiency of the post office and then it's a palatable episode.

[1:21:54] Oh jeff jeff jeff jeff buddy i've loved doing this project with you this has been such a blast you know here at babel on five for the first time jeff we are we we have a lot of fun on the show right we like to play our games right we do we do love games we like to play we have our predictions. We got a rule of three, Jeff. It's time to bring in an all new game. We've never done this one before. I mean, we have, but not on this show. And not here. This one is going to test our deep dive knowledge of the show here at the series wrap-up. Okay. All right. This is going to test our analytical prowess that we touted as we came over as Star Trek guys, specifically when it comes to, let's just say.

[1:22:40] Practical applications. It's time, Jeff, for the game that everybody knows and loves.

[1:22:46] Would you rather the lurkers edition okay okay set it up jeff set it up buddy okay so if you're not familiar with uh would you rather the goal of this is to have basically two unenviable unwantable horrible choices and you have to say which one you would rather do this is a game i play with my daughter very frequently and she has a really good time with i'll start with a really softball one for you that's mostly fun uh just to kind of give an example but uh would you rather only ever be able to eat flarn or only ever be able to eat spoo you know here's the thing my instinct says to go with flarn oh yeah yeah however i'm thinking of that episode with mac and beau sitting there he's like you know the spoo stuff's actually pretty good and it's a it's a dish that is known the galaxy over even he-man likes the dish he does so i kind of think spoo might be the answer over flooring because wasn't flooring like just these like little cubes of something look like tofu yeah and i'm not a tofu dude i don't even like that consistency man so i'm gonna go with spoo okay okay and just on on the record on the social proofing see this is why your ratings and recommendations and reviews help folks based on the ratings and recommendations of folks i've seen in the show i'm gonna go with spoo that's fair.

[1:24:15] That's fair okay all right jeff i'm not i'm not throwing you any any softballs would you rather be tortured by cartagia or be hit with the psycop pain question yes who is delivering the pain a psycho a level level 12 psycop just a random random psycop matheson bester i don't care if it if it was harriman gray i would take the pain just to hear him say it, It'd be worth it. So what we know about Cartagia and his torture is ultimately it's going to end in vivisection. He killed the court jester, right? And then did awfully, took a spoon to Jakar's eye. I'm going to take pain because like that's going to suck, but it's going to, I'm going to sleep it off.

[1:25:11] You think you are. I know. I haven't been pained before, but I tell you what, I have had some really, really long nights. and you can eventually sleep that off and be fine. Okay, this one's a little outside of the show itself, a little more meta. Would you rather that Legends of the Rangers, Legend of the Rangers became a series or that the enemies in third space replaced the shadows as the big bad in the series? You know, Jeff, I trust JMS at this point. I trust his writing. And I trust that whatever the hell Legends of the Rangers was, was going to get a lot better. But those alien dudes in third space were boo. And if I had to live with those guys and replace the shadows, no, no. I will submit myself to seven 22 episodes seasons of lady fighting in a whatever and throwing my headphones down before I'm going to give up the shadows. I agree with that, actually. Yeah. All right, Jeff. I got one for you. Okay. And this one's kind of like a theme from the last one. All right. Would you rather face Lanier in the Muda Doe to the death or face down a pack of angry Narn throwing their haymakers? Will they do like the flying kicks too?

[1:26:35] This is actually easy. I'll take the Narn because that's going to be over relatively quickly. We saw that with Rifa. They got on him. They beat him down. He was done. Lanier? Lanier has a bit of a, we saw it with Marcus when he lifted it up and yelled, he kind of doesn't like humans. He's got a little bit of a bias there. I feel like he would stretch it. And it wouldn't be hard for him to stretch that out with me because I would have no defense against, he would basically be the crane technique. No defend. No defend from Jeff Aiken here. And he could just have fun with me. And that could last a long time. And then he would steal your motorcycle. He'd steal my motorcycle and then try and, like, steal my girl at the same time, even though she wouldn't be interested because she never really was. But he'd still go for it because he's Lanier. Can I give you a bonus one that I just now thought of, and I want to say it before I lose it? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. This isn't a bad one. Would you rather ride on the back of Lanier's, like, ride the girlfriend position, if you know what I'm saying, on the back of Lanier's motorcycle or ride in that same position on the back of Captain Gideon in a speeder bike. Oh, Captain Gideon. Yeah. Not only is it fun to do it, but you get the smell of that leather jacket going, and it'd be Gideon. Okay, Brent, would you rather face the Inquisitor or get implanted with a keeper?

[1:27:56] Ooh, I'm going to face the Inquisitor. And you know why? Yeah, because you and I are in very different spots of that episode. Yes. in the end i trust jack the ripper that if i'm not right he's gonna it's i'm gonna be you know but the keeper listen the keeper is going to torture me and keep me alive to continue to torture me okay and and they're gonna afford and listen and first of all look i don't drink that much like i'm just i'm not a big drinker so i can't that i can't do that part of it you You know what I mean? Like, they're just not good. So, and it kind of also, one ends and the other is with you for the rest of your life. So, I'm going to go with, I'm going to face down Jack the Ripper, but he's also going to teach me something about myself. Or you'll die, and then it's done. Or I'll die, and then I'm good. Like, I ain't going to worry about it anymore. All right. Actually, I enjoyed coming up with this one. Oh, no. All right, Jeff. You work housekeeping on the station. Okay. Would you rather have to clean up Delenn's quarters after her chrysalis or clean up Garibaldi's quarters the day after a bender? Delenn's quarters. I have a child and I was in a touring band for a long time and I'm not okay with vomit.

[1:29:21] At all. At least the chrysalis thing would be some like, oh, this is kind of neat. Never seen something like this before. I'll take a piece and put it on my mantle. I'll give this as a gift to John Sheridan. Here you go. You get the flakes of that like rock skin that she had going on. Dustbuster, that whole thing. All right, I just have one more for you. Okay. Would you rather, if you had the chance, save the Markab or save the Hayek Doe?

[1:29:53] The Hayak Doe were the ones that were alive or the ones that had perished way back when? Perished way back when? I'm going to save them. Okay. Because I don't think they deserve to perish. The Hayak deserved to be perished, but the Hayak Doe did not. The Markab made their choice. They made their own stupid choice. And you know what? We watched that episode. Like that episode was so timely to us watching. and let you guys send all your emails to jeff at babylon5forthefirsttime.com okay um that was an episode that showed in 1994 what happens when people don't listen to to the folks that know what the fuck they're talking about pardon my language they you know listen to them folks they know i've seen it you can say whatever you want to say firsthand knowledge over here like.

[1:30:41] Stuff goes bad when you don't listen to to the folks that really really know what they're talking about yeah you know mark have did it to themselves the high acto had it done to them um and it was such a point that the high acto was such a poignant lesson man such a poignant lesson yeah it was jeff i want to i want to bring one in from our council chambers who are here watching with us oh okay okay because it's so good it's so good our friend suzanne says this would you rather oh my god oh no oh my god would you rather listen to the songs in walkabout on repeat or be forced to laugh with garibaldi during his second favorite thing i'm gonna go on on repeat are you really what do you want to do i'm gonna clarifying question do we get popcorn while watching nope no clarifiers you know your choice is walkabout songs on repeat laughing with garibaldi watching Duck Dodgers. I'm going to laugh with Garibaldi. I mean, I can't listen to that song one time, let alone repeat.

[1:31:47] So bad. Oh, my word. So, so bad. Oh, my word. That's so good. Suzanne, thank you for that. You and I have said the Babylon 5 fan community is the best one out there. Yeah. I would have been that. Our community right here, our Discord folks, our Patreon folks, our Council Chamber folks right here, even like the people that comment on YouTube and in the other places, Like, like we've gotten to know these folks over the last couple of years. One of the best absolute communities I've ever been a part of you guys. Absolutely phenomenal. But even in the best of communities, Jeff, opinion is often taken as fact, you know, like Kefir was awful. Sleeping in light is the greatest series finale of all time, which it is, but whatever.

[1:32:31] But Jeff, you know, there's some unpopular opinions out there too. You and I documented every single one of them as we went through. Uh but we've had some time to think a little bit more so i'm gonna ask you here at our series wrap up and we're only gonna do one we'll only do one of these what is an unpopular opinion that you have that could get you canceled out of this community and it better be good it better be good just one unpopular opinion i mean if you if you have a couple that are like really good and it's gonna make good listening then do it but like i've i've i've i've i've i've a couple here but I have two that I think are big. All right. One, and I don't think this will come as a surprise to people, but Delenn was better pre-Chrysalis, and she at best was an inconsistent character, which is a nice way of saying that I think she's my least favorite of the main cast. You're right. That is an extremely unpopular opinion. It's an opinion, and I totally get how people, like she's great for so many people, but not for me. I mean, for more explanation on that, find Jeff's journey. Actually, you can find Jeff's personal journey with Dylan on our Patreon page, patreon.com slash Babylon five first. That's the number five in the word first. Well done. Well done. Yes. What's yours? I got a few here. Oh, we get one. And then I got a couple. Here's the thing. You ready? Okay.

[1:33:56] Jeff, say one or two. Two. Okay. Byron was a perfectly done character. Explain everything about Byron. You were supposed to hate everything about Byron was supposed to make you feel everything about Byron. Whenever he came on screen was supposed to make you go this guy again. Everything about Byron was to make you sit back and go, how are in the world are those people following him? He is awful. As an outsider looking in, you're going, are you nuts? Who is this guy?

[1:34:30] He's boring. his hair is boring although it's pretty sunshine but oh my word and he's creepy and he's everything about him as a cult leader is supposed to give you all of those reactions and they did it perfectly okay that doesn't mean i like him that doesn't mean i want to do anything with him that doesn't mean i wasn't bored out of my freaking mind every time it was on screen i just wanted him to die But that's the point, I think.

[1:34:59] That's the point, is he's supposed to be that. And if that's the case, then that means he was done to perfection. I've heard that opinion before, and it's been dogpiled on when people have it. And I'm going to go back to my old argument, too. It's X-Pac heat in wrestling. Yeah, you hate him, and he's awful, but you just hate him. Whereas Cartagia, who's a very different villain, villain but cartagia you hated him but you wanted to see him byron it was a very different thing but like there was there was nothing redeeming in him there was nothing into pro wrestling parlance there's nothing that would make me want to lay my money down to watch him get beat up i would actually lay money down to just not see him again that was the point i don't know man that was i think that that had to have been the point and i'm and i'm basing this entire opinion on something i've never actually heard from the man himself i'm just making an assumption that that's how you were supposed to feel about this guy that's what we wanted you to do okay now that being said when we get to that part of the rewatch you and i are both going to be like i know right not again.

[1:36:11] Let's be okay jeff i'm curious what was your other one so i i said a couple that like people would expect out of me right the interstellar alliance was just a trumped up thing for sheridan to become lord tyrant of the galaxy bester was the victim of the crew on babylon five he didn't deserve the treatment he got uh we talked earlier gideon is a better captain did that bester one man, Dude, I'm still there. And when we get in second time, I'm going to pay special attention to like, what has he done in front of and to the crew to warrant being treated like that? Because I think there was, I think that he was, I think he was bullied by, he was bullied into becoming the bad guy is what happened. In fact, the crew of Babylon 5 is responsible for everything Bester became. And I threw that at him. But my big one that I really have, and Brent, you're not going to like this one at all. Okay. Zathras is dramatically overrated in the fan community. How could you? How could you? Traitor.

[1:37:12] Betrayer of worlds. I am stealing this from someone who I don't know is online, but I don't disagree, that Zathras was four minutes away from being the Jar Jar of Babylon 5. And that's just like, we didn't get enough of him. Like, we got just enough of him that it was okay, but the level to which he is heralded is... And yeah, and to be clear in the chat, they're saying, you know, I mean, Zathras, not Zathras. I do not mean Zothras, but I do mean Zathras.

[1:37:41] Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. Did you have any other ones? Oh, I got a couple here, but I'll give you this one. And I'm wording this in the right way. The Regent, Jokey McJokerson? Yeah. Love him. Yeah. Got everything he deserved. You know what? I don't disagree. He got everything he deserved. He he was as as much as i love him and i just want to hug him and i want to whatever he was as much a part of that as anything else and it's proof by one action and one action alone the joke that he told that he laughed at he was he was so far in that and and i think he says at some point he's like yeah we this is all we had coming to us like this is it yeah that's right i can agree as he he outright said he's like this is how you got it this is how i've chosen to show up to survive around here and so it was all a choice i could definitely i can agree with that one let me give you one you might not agree with okay because i think i think most of the fandom doesn't agree with this one at least i i hope so because i kind of got that vibe uh the vorlons were right and are still the good guys listen they went they went nutso after the shadows killed kosh yeah okay take that off the board because they just they just lost their their their minds at that point OK, but when you look at the whole piece of how are we going to help the younger civilizations, the younger whatever advance, we're going to do it through these channels.

[1:39:08] Those are the right channels to help civil civilizations advance. And they were right about that. And I would side with the Vorlons in and through that process. Now, they may have lost some of the reasoning why they may have lost some of those other pieces. It may become more about them, but they were still right in what they were doing and how they were going about it. So I think... To pull a Rush reference, I got Mass Effect earlier. I got Rush here. If you're playing Jeff Bingo, you might be getting close at this point. But in Rush Song, there's Cygnus X1, book two. They talk about this group that followed Dionysus for a while, and they just made wine and partied and had a great time, and then the winter came and they were bad. So then they followed Apollo, but they lost their culture and whatever. It's the balance, right? And I think that's part of what we learn in this is it's a balance between the Shadows and the Vorlon. Are you familiar very much with the writings or philosophy of Ayn Rand? She did World Atlas or something like that, right? Yeah, Atlas Shrugged, Fountainhead. Atlas Shrugged, yeah, yeah, that one.

[1:40:07] And then even like this here behind me, Rush 2112, that was based on Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead thing. And I feel like the Vorlon are, so she calls her philosophy, I think it's universalism or something like that. But I think that's the Vorlon. Complete order. no individuality no nothing all serving the greater peace and her writings deeply flawed and problematic as they are go through and talk about like how that just destroys the human spirit kills all creativity and all those pieces I feel the Vorlon are the peak of that I also find it interesting that on one hand you say the Vorlons had it right and were helping societies the right way but on the other hand you're like they did Byron right because he was all like what you're basically saying is The Vorlon were right to tamper with humanity and other races to give them telepathy for their own purposes and by when Bryon was right to be all pissed off about that and mad and angry. I don't think Byron was right to be mad and pissed off about that and angry and I do think the Vorlons were right in giving the younger races the ability to defend themselves against a monstrous race monstrous race. And again, judging by your diatribe just moments ago and looking at the chat blowing up right now, I'm going to stand by my unpopular opinion. Hey, they're unpopular for what we said they were, right?

[1:41:35] This wouldn't be a for the first time program if we weren't looking at the messages in the series, right? We ask ourselves this question every week. Does this have any deep morals, messages? Does it holding up a mirror to society, maybe giving us hope that we'll be better in the future?

[1:41:52] Instead of us going in and being like, oh, here's the lessons we pulled out because you can just check out our episode on Objects at Rest, which just lists out everything and we talk about that in a deep way. Instead of that, why don't we talk about a handful of episodes for us that really stood out in delivering the messages that were there? Do you have any that immediately stand out for you? Man, I got to tell you, this was such a hard exercise to go through because it's 110 episodes of White. what was that message? What was the episode of that episode? And what, so I tried to remember which ones at, well, I just took, which ones stood out, which ones just stick with you. Right. So I had three, three that I could sit back and go, I got that one. Okay. Um, the first one I would assume is actually, I would assume at least two of these are probably on both of our deals. The first one's garden of guests under me. Yep. That's in my, I go back to that episode where, where in particular.

[1:42:49] The moment when Sheridan meets, It's the new guy, the new brain wiped dude who killed brother Edward in that episode. And he has a moment to make a choice of, am I going to do to this guy what I just slammed people for doing to brother Edward? And he has that moment of decision to make right there. It was such a pivotal moment. And you and I both talked about how in many ways that really set the tone for what the entirety of season three and much of the show really was going to be about all the way through.

[1:43:23] So I've got Garden of Gethsemane on my list. Do you want me to do all of mine and then you do all of yours? We'll just go through because we might actually have quite a few. Okay. So I have that one. The other one and this one should come as no surprise to anybody but The Very Long Night of Londo Malari. When we talk about forgiveness, when we talk about receiving forgiveness.

[1:43:44] Because that's just as important as issuing forgiveness many times, and how to culminate that. And also, Very Long Night of Londo Malari is the culmination. Well, Fall of Centauri Primarily becomes the culmination, but it really happens there within Very Long Night. And of what people made. I mean, you guys made memes out there for me about, is this the redemption of Londo Malari? And it comes down to that one episode. And, and it's, it's these things. I just remember like we were talking about it, talking about, talking about, and then all of a sudden it's, oh, Here it is, everything you've been talking about for so many years. And I thought that was, that is one that stands out to me in particular. But the other one, we've already referenced it earlier today, and I don't remember which episode it was. Jeff, you're going to remember it off the top of your head. The episode with the Hayak Doe, the Hayak and the Hayak Doe. And when you sit back and you go, what the Hayak Doe did, or what the Hayak did to the Hayak Doe is a warning of what happens when we commit genocide. Is a warning of what happens when we try to remove people from our midst we are better together we need each other that message really stands out to me when i think back over the entirety of the show go which ones percolate to the top of my head that's that's the one that really percolates up so uh what about you jeff we had a couple they're the same passing through gethsemane secrets of the soul, which was the high acto one, uh.

[1:45:14] One that stood out to me also is seek transit veer and just, uh, just how normalized, uh, bigotry and racism can become to the point that they don't even appear. That's the one where we meet his supposed potential wife, right? Yeah. Yeah. When it was just like, oh yeah, we killed this guy. Cover this thing.

[1:45:32] Confessions and lamentations, uh, stood out just, and we just talked about it earlier. You know, the Markab are gone because of choices that they made. And that one, you know, one of the things I love, we both appreciate about Babylon 5 is its commentary on faith and religion. Those being separate, you know, and distinct, sometimes parallel things. And this is just really beautifully spelled out the dangers of religion.

[1:45:58] But the one that I had that's actually a pairing that actually surprised me when I went through and I was thinking about, oh, this thing really stands out. And then I saw which episode it was in. I was like, ah, I'm going to say this. So it's the combination of Into the Fire and the Paragon of Animals. Okay. So Into the Fire really happens because of humanity's ability to bring people together. So that's not a highlight on humanity, but that's just the whole point that JMS makes throughout so much of his creation that we are better together than we are on our own. And then that was verbalized in such a powerful and beautiful way in the Paragon of Animals, which I looked back at our episode on that, and this was so buried in the story that it didn't reflect in our rating of it, but that's where Jakar read off his Declaration of Principles We are one. And that was so powerful. Like it's almost as much as we talk about that monologue from objects at rest and holding that up of like, this is what Babylon five is about. That declaration of principles should be sitting right next to it. Oh, Brent, that's it for Babylon five, all of Babylon five next week. We're going to go a little meta. We're going to go a level up from Babylon five. Brent and I have been reading, uh, J. Michael Straczynski's autobiography, becoming Superman.

[1:47:23] So we will talk about that, dive into the genius behind all of this brilliant series. And then from there, just a programming note for everyone from there, we're going to watch this series again. Babylon 5 for the second time will kick off. Why, Jeff? Why do people want to come back and watch this for the second time? You know what? At this point, I love if they show up. I just want to watch it again.

[1:47:49] If everybody were to don't. We've already done the show. Why are we doing this again, bro? There's a whole other show that we need to make. What are you talking about? We watch this the second time. It is not going to be the same as it was the first time. Why? Because they change it because we changed. So join us here next week. The chain while we'll watch the becoming super. And then you have to watch it. Join us as we are the changed group watching Babylon five. Thank you for being here through all of this incredible journey. And thank you for celebrating the series with us here today. If you haven't already subscribed, do all that good stuff. Share this podcast. Now is the time. We're about to start over at the gathering and into midnight on the firing line, season one, two, all through everything. Get this thing out there and let people experience what you've been able to enjoy with Brent and myself. So, Brent, that's it. Until next time, we're going to get— Hey, Jeff. Yeah, man, what's up? You know, I saw that picture of you. What picture? oh you know the one where you're about to go where everyone has gone before come on come on man come on hey listen jeff jeff it's cool it's not like this podcast is a trek through some old 90s sci-fi show this podcast means something oh get the hell out of here man now get the hell out of our galaxy.