Believers | For the Second Time

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters a while ago, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all of the things that we didn't know about when we watched it the first time around. But we are still former Star Trek podcasters and we're former Babylon 5 for the first time podcasters where we do this thing where we overanalyze an episode and look for messages. We're still doing that this time around, trying to find those sci-fi messages in this series. We're asking what the episodes are trying to tell us, if they're trying to tell us anything at all. And just a heads up, if this is your first time through the series, stop right now. Go join us on Babylon 5 for the first time and make your way through unspoiled because from this point forward, anything from any episode of Babylon 5, the franchise of Babylon 5 Crusade, the movies, lurkers guides, books, novels, comics, con panels, anything where we might have information, that is all fair game for us to talk about. You have been warned. We're watching Believers today for the second time.

[1:49] Yay! Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. Well, Brent, tell me, what do you remember about your first viewing of this episode, believe it? I hated this episode so much with a passion, but not like I hated a late delivery from Avalon. This was a very different type of hatred for me. I hated this one because of how it made me feel at the end. It actually went to a place I didn't think any TV in the 90s was going to go. It's a place where TV would go today for sure, especially HBO, anything like that, right? I did not think 90s TV was going to go here. And it was like someone driving a dagger into my heart. I have to tell you, Jeff, I said this back then. I'll say it again. Ever since becoming a parent myself, I don't handle kids stuff really well.

[2:35] I just don't, don't hurt the kids. Don't hurt the kids. No matter what JMS, I'm looking at you. I know your policy. Stop hurting kids. That being said, Jeff, I also remember thinking this is a really great episode of sci-fi. Like this is a textbook episode, moral conundrums, exploring both sides. You kind of see each person's point of view. I'm sorry. Let me take that back. You definitely see each person's point of view and they both have a good point. And in the end, it leaves you asking the question of what do you think for that? I think this episode gets extremely high marks on. But i have to tell you jeff if this is the last time i ever have to watch this episode i will not complain how about you same like this episode is horrible awful and i think some of the best episodes of babylon 5 are that you know i think down the road we have things like confessions and lamentations and stuff that's coming and it's like i don't want to watch that again and i don't want to watch this one again we said i don't know if it was before we came on or when it was just when we were hanging out with our Patreon folks, but I feel like I remember everything about this episode.

[3:45] Absolutely everything. Like it's burned into my mind and I'm very much hopeful that I'll watch it and be like, oh, I forgot this thing or that's different. But going into it, that's not going to happen. You know, it's just gonna be like, oh, yep, there's that crappy thing. Oh, there's that horrible thing, you know, all that. What I really remember out of this was this is where Jeff's extreme hatred, dislike of dr franklin really took root interesting interesting you want to know what you actually said yeah the first time we went through this i'm pretty curious i went back and listened okay you you actually uh you you took this and you related it back to star trek because that's what we did especially way back in the early years said said uh we both actually said we were getting very big tuvix vibes off this episode okay um where both answers are right and wrong now i completely disagree. I think Tuvix has a very definitive right and wrong answer, but still, you get my point.

[4:42] Um, but you, Jeff really related this to growing up in a cult experience growing up in a cult is, is where you, that was like, you're jumping off point. Um, when you were talking about this, as we went through this the first time, um, we both posited and we were discussing it. I still don't think I know if this is true or not. Is there a big debate in the fandom as to who's right in this particular episode. Was it Dr. Franklin or was it the parents? And of course for us after this, the whole conversation dropped and we moved on because we had great episodes still to come such as.

[5:18] Liana Kimmer and Ben Zane. But Jeff, you made a declaration on this one. Oh, you said that Sinclair made the absolute right call here and it was a shining leadership moment and it was the most shining leadership moment he's had so far in the series. And specifically what you were talking about there was how he went to the kid and talked to the kid, but he came back to Franklin and he said to Franklin at some point, you should never have asked me. That's right. Meaning you should have just done it. You should have just done it. Don't come ask me for this in the future because once you ask me, now I have to weigh in. You should have just done it, which I thought was real interesting. I made a very bold prediction though, Jeff. Yeah? As we talked about this. Let me read the prediction. Okay. Buckle in. Get that crown loosely situated up there. The great egg is going to be a big thing. Like huge.

[6:15] So big. it's gonna come back this culture is too well developed to just be left as a one-time thing, yeah but you couldn't have been more right well i went brent and i looked at the lurker's guide and oh you did things that uh jms talked about anything good this that we should be aware of as we get to head into this episode today so much oh no there's so much in this one oh i bet yeah i I bet. All right. First of all, let me, let me just ask, how much was this JMS popping back at people commenting, like putting stupid comments out there? There was definitely a little bit of that. Okay. But, and I talk about one of them because I think it's actually. Those make me laugh, by the way. Whenever I read those, I just, I get a, I get a chuckle out of them. It's so fun. Like, but I think like in this one, there was actually some pretty relevant stuff he pushed back on. And I think some of the questions were that assuming, you know what the questions were because we only see one side of it, but it seemed like some good ones in it. But to make this episode, you said when you talked about your thoughts how they're not going to make TV like this in the 90s. They don't do this.

[7:20] So he said, of the episode, he goes, this is like something that has never been done in any science fiction TV. And I don't think it's ever been done in TV overall at that point. He said that P10, when he submitted it to them, they said, they go, number one, this is absolutely against the demographics on the show. Number two, no studio or network executive in his right mind would ever approve this story in a million years. And number three it's a hell of a story i love it let's do it and he talked more about p10 and he said he's like yeah they left us alone they're trusting us in our storytelling we want to go right out to the very edge and they're letting us which is wonderful so it's one of those things like jms had these great ideas but it was really that partnership yeah with with p10 that let him do a lot of it well the fan community at the time said this wasn't sci-fi enough he's like it doesn't have enough warp gates there's no tachyon admitters there's no technobabble but what he said and I love this you know what that sounds like to me honestly that's people who are just.

[8:26] That's all that is he says you're right it didn't have all of those things this is a story about people and the dilemmas they face and that is precisely why so much of contemporary science fiction TV he's looking at modern Star Trek at the time, I believe, is barren, lifeless, and irrelevant. And it's precisely why series such as the original Star Trek, Outer Limits, and The Twilight Zone are still with us today. I would disagree that modern Star Trek, for him, Berman era Star Trek was any of those things that he just described, outside of individual episodes being like that. Yeah.

[9:07] You know, but I, I, to each their own, you know, to each their own. There you go. I can see that through a lot of 80s sci-fi that was kind of coming out. It's kind of a cool little, um, I don't know, view on the whole thing. Somebody was arguing with him and saying that the doctor was right. And he says, I disagree with you. Says who? Not the parents. The episode didn't say he was right. Nobody in this was really right. When you come down to it, except maybe Sinclair who made the correct call. You say the boy was okay at the end. Well, the parents didn't think so. Who's to say if there was or wasn't a soul inside? The thing about believers is that really nobody is right. And from their point of view.

[9:51] Everyone is right like that's to me like that's sci-fi that's what this is here that's what it exists for well and you know to clarify when i say that this is a really good episode of sci-fi it's not that there's tachyons and warp bubbles and jump gates and pew pew pews and all that kind of stuff it's it's what we do is is star trek and if there's star trek people that are saying that kind of stuff like do you not even understand your own show like the the good the what's so great about sci-fi as a genre and it's why we've stopped saying the star trek message is the sci-fi message right because it's the genres you can you can tackle these issues explore it from both sides and then leave it there for people to to to address and you put it in alien worlds so that we can make it more palatable all right well that is what we got from lurker's guide you got from our first time viewing what do you say we go watch this episode for the second time do we can we can I mean, just fast forward and get to the end. I know.

[10:45] And like by the end, I mean the credits. Yeah, right. That's what I mean. Yeah, nothing else. Oh my God. Right, right. I mean, because Jeff, I dare say you and I right now could skip to the end, have the entire conversation about the message of this episode. I think so. Right now. Yeah. Yeah. I guess we should watch it. The council chambers over there. Those guys are not, they're like, no, you're not allowed to. We have to see you cringe and cry and throw stuff and things. Yeah, that might happen. Thanks, council chambers. seriously you put us up just remember that you put us up to this it's all your fault guys it's all right man let's do this if you haven't like brent said earlier if you haven't watched our for the first time piece or haven't watched this episode stop and go watch it um it's just it has a ton more ton more context and you'll enjoy it a lot more if you're um watching this on youtube you're about to see the kind of cut up reaction video style of this we do have our full unedited complete version of this up on our Patreon page. It's patreon.com slash Babylon 5 first and number five.

[11:46] And the word first and hey listen if you guys are listening to this on the audio side of things a podcasting app maybe audible or some other way where you're just listening to the audio uh you're actually going to get to hear the reaction to the episode as it happens um and we're going to meet you on the other side where jeff and i are going to share our thoughts on this episode we'll talk about those messages that we already know are in there but the question is jeff are we going to find new messages that we missed the first time around we just might all right well let's jump into this episode. Accessing file. I'd have right in.

[12:20] What do you mean there's no sci-fi? Look, he's on a bed with lights going over top of him. How much more sci-fi can you get? That's modern medicine right there. Future medicine. He's got a real Bill Mummy look to him. He, you know who he reminds me of? He's, um, uh, Brian... It has been in the streams of time, Sean. Worf's kid. Bonsall? Yeah. I'll tell you what it's written in the streams of time. Very soon, you will breathe much easier. Please don't speak that way. No one knows what is written in the stream until the waters surround him. The Great Stream? Do we get a stream now, too? We missed the stream the first time. Yeah, I'm never wrong about these things. I'm never wrong about these things. Right? Yeah. Wow. Dr. Franklin, my husband would like to speak with you candidly. May he do so? Of course. Dude, she's just like, I'm really mad at you, so you need to go talk to my husband. Right. Surgery. You will cut him open? Well, that's usually what surgery entails. He says that with, like, a chuckle in his voice. Come open it. We will find no help here. Thank you, Dr. Franklin. I'm sorry to have taken so much of your time.

[13:24] Look, it's a simple procedure. Afterwards, he'll be stronger than ever. You don't understand. Food animals are cut open. They don't have a soul, so it's all right. But the chosen of God may not be punctured. You must not cut into the child. Now, I know what is written. You just said you don't know you got to wait for the waters to envelop him the third age this is one of those those things that that star trek specifically loves to bring up and i don't feel like they ever do it well which is how do you not judge another culture by your own standards.

[14:05] When those things in that other culture are clearly wrong like should be universally wrong you know what i mean um you would think you know a death sentence for somebody who walked across the grass like really really like come on guys yeah but also i mean they would say the exact same thing about us how can you just let that happen we'll be right there exactly but that's what i mean is they never do a good job of really exploring it and giving you an answer like how do you how do you walk that line between the between if it's a lot of it is just that question of just like we can sit here and say this is clearly objectively right or wrong but who gets to say that's objectively correct who's making that decision you know i mean you can say it's wrong to kill says who he said yeah why it says who it's it's yeah it was it always wrong is that just like a unit because if that's a universal constant there probably wouldn't be a lot of killing that happened but there really is a lot that happens and and then you have the question well.

[15:08] If it is universally wrong to kill, then nobody can kill. But if it's not universally wrong to kill, then who can kill and who can't? And who gets to decide who can and who can't? The government gets to kill, but individuals can't? Got it. Commander, we've just received a distress signal from the Starliner Asimov. Location. Grid 471 by 18. Jeff, something I want you to pay attention to as we get into this. Let's say it. I'm going to say it so we can address it as it goes. What you and I had said was both the A plot and the B plot centered around an officer disobeying direct orders. Oh, okay. Franklin disobeying his orders. Ivanova is going to disobey her orders.

[15:46] And both people doing what they thought was right in order to save people. And you see how it can actually work out for one and not for the other. So in doing so, you get this idea that like it may or may not, you know, just because it does or doesn't work out doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do at some point. So anyway, let's watch for that as we go forward. Catch a fighter wing to meet the Asimov. Been an escorter back here. A potential combat situation requires the presence of at least one command officer. Is Garibaldi available? I suppose. What? What? Nothing. What? I certainly have plenty of things to occupy myself here. Yes, sir. I think I'll just walk to and fro for a while. Maybe over to my console Fro and two After that maybe I'll Try pacing Fro and two I remember that line This is when we started Doing dad jokes Just because of that line It's not quite the same As if you were outside I have an idea Lieutenant Commander Why don't you take out The fighter wing And escort the Asimov Back to base What a great idea Commander.

[16:44] I watch that now And I'm like God Sinclair's awesome That was So well handled Uh huh So you're just going To let him die What kind of a god Do you worship We cannot discuss this any longer. This is useless. Note that it's not just Franklin passing this judgment. It will take longer, and it will be far more uncomfortable, and it will cost more. We are the children of time. We cannot break our covenant any more than you could cease to... Egg-sucking mammaloids.

[17:18] Great eggs. Get on the teacher. If we use a combination of emollients and microbeams, we might help the body clear itself. He is lying through his teeth. Well, it may not work at all, but I don't think you're going to find another doctor who will suggest anything better, and you will lose valuable time if you go looking. Put that fear of missing out on him. May we discuss this alone, please? No, you have to make a decision right now. That's a great play by Stephen Biggs, though. Like, it's so obvious. He's like, uh, well, we can try. Our son will not survive another space trip, will he? No. Then we either accept the fragile hope you offer, or we watch our son die in pain. It is not much of a choice, is it? Nope. Planet Placebo. The egg has to be held just like this and petted. That's a silly putty egg. Uh-huh, yep. With a light in it. Right? Right. Since I'm going to be too busy treating you to take care of it for a while, you're going to have to do that more. They are actively looking for something to be offended by. Okay.

[18:28] It is all right, isn't it? Please. It is all right. Mania? Datya? Mania.

[18:34] Datya. It isn't a dangerous creature, is it? Don't worry. Dude, his lipstick is... Well, you may speak to the egg, Sean, but... Way weirdly colored. You may not speak of sacred things to it. Those are only for our people.

[18:47] Yes, Datya. Thank you. that's a good move by franklin right here's kid your parents are gonna let you watch youtube so i can give you something else to like occupy yourself that makes you feel like you're doing something valuable right that's good you didn't solve anything you just postponed it i gave them a chance to think about it to reconsider you are so certain aren't you all right look she sees him if you think you could find a better way go ahead research it prove me wrong if it'll make you happy you're not going to find anything and i'll bet a steak dinner on that too can't get steak out here then i'll import one why not one way or another i'm gonna save that they have freezers right we had that conversation a long time ago like yes you can get a steak out there i like what she was saying though i mean she called him out you know outright on where he was coming from but when she talked about how like look in their eyes they're so scared i would have flipped back on him where you know, he was kind of in her face and he's like, you know, you can't judge the patient. You have to understand them, you know, and all this stuff. That's what, like she was saying, they're scared. So understand them, meet them where they're at, you know, and because you have science, they have their beliefs and like meet them there so you can give them some assurance, you know, and that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get to do the surgery or whatever, but you can answer their questions.

[20:09] Right. You know, and I like this doctor. She seems pretty good although she's out there being just as judgy as franklin that's the thing like too both franklin and dr dr girl are kind of in like they're foot flopping a little they are they're they don't feel like they're staying on their side that they've established that they're each on yeah but maybe that's a product of like this isn't simple yeah sure in my opinion the presence of finger legs aboard this installation might present a serious hazard there's a real egg theme through this, I don't know you that much import another steak in circumstances like this. We're in a legal limbo. You could order me to take whatever steps I felt necessary to save that boy's life, including surgery. If I do that, it establishes a precedent. What if I made an official request? I'm asking you to find another way to resolve this. You don't care if that boy does. That's not the issue. If it were, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but it's not the only issue.

[21:08] I didn't get my way i'm out this isn't going to go away neither will i it actually is going to go away because the kid is going to die i mean that's awful but it's also true i just gotta say.

[21:20] I freaking love sinclair i i don't know how i hated him so much the first time around i i don't know how i thought he was a bad actor the first time around i know i thought he's fine like his acting here is fine fine it's not amazing no it's not bowl me over it's not it's not shakespearean turned uh screen actor you know but that's fine and the character's great yeah maintain radio silence until contact back when raiders were a big deal like apparently they were important in a few episodes to be you know plot movers that's about it we have a safety of the patient precedent here on the station you leave me no choice but to ask commander sinclair to suspend your parental authority what does that mean that means i'll do whatever i feel necessary to save your son's life i'll put aside your objections and i will perform that surgery without your permission no you can't do that you mustn't do that please dr brinkland i'm sorry i have to do what i feel is best for sure i'm just worried he should be like look he's gonna die so why don't you let me give it a shot let's see if that soul really leaves or not like where's the downside because they know we will that no see that's the thing though jeff you and i already know the answer to that to that question i mean unless are you asking this as dr franklin are you asking this as jeff as dr franklin okay because i'm gonna say like as as a viewer who've seen this before, like we get it like that's the idea like if you cut him open his soul will escape.

[22:48] This is not a let's play around and see this is not an f around and find out right yeah this is a certainty yeah this is you know according to their thing but i gotta tell you jeff i'm sitting here thinking he says a line here that I find absolutely fascinating. I will go to commander Sinclair. And ask him to suspend your parental rights, right? Right here in the good old United States, in the state of Florida, because this is going to be by, the states are going to do this, not the federal government. Yeah. If you have parents withholding medical care like this, the state will step in and take the child away from you. Yeah. That's abuse by statutory definition in every state. Absolutely. They will step in and take this away from you. And is that right or wrong? That's the question. Listen, I'm going to step on some toes right here, and I don't even give an F right now. There are people who have decided not to vaccinate their children against the measles.

[23:41] Two of those children have died. Those parents should be held criminally – as criminals. They should be. I'm sorry. You just should be. That is ridiculous that that has happened. It is ridiculous that it's now spread to over, what, 200 cases across two, maybe three states. You know this is that is that is criminal neglect yeah that's where i am on it if i is where i am on it if i don't want you want to send me emails do it i don't care if i don't give my kid food and they starve and die that's on me right that's neglect that's a crime i will go to prison why is it different with medicine what what is the difference here and the thing is there's not there's not a difference for whatever reason people have politicized it most recently but But even before that, you know, I mean, as far back as I can remember in recorded history, whatever version of God or gods will provide the gods and God did provide.

[24:41] With the knowledge of science that led to us coming up with treatments and medicines. Like, come on, this isn't, isn't a leap. Yep. But the state, I'm going to ask some commander Sinclair to suspend your parental rights and you don't get a say in this matter. And yeah, it sounds awful, but like you said, it happens. It happens. And, and it might not be the wrong decision for the sake of the kid. Let's go back to this. He is not your responsibility. Unfortunately, he is now. Dr. Franklin has made an official request, and I have to rule on it. Thank you for explaining your side of it. I like how he's explaining his position and what he's having to go through. I'll make my decision within 24 hours. You will rule against us, won't you? You will give our child to Dr. Franklin. Earth people always stick together. I'm sorry you feel that way. I wasn't going to make that decision necessarily, but now I am. If he harms my child, if he touches my child... That would be the wrong reason to make that decision. By the way. We're not asking you to negotiate a treaty. That's what's in it for me. We're asking you to help save our child. What were you thinking when you petitioned us? We thought your dislike of the Earthers would be enough. Enough for us. Not for you. We do not casually entangle ourselves in the affairs of other species. Please. He's our son. Have you no sympathy? That's a big growth point for Jakar. Because later on he does.

[26:08] This is a difficult and distressing situation. Well, I would have to go to the council and request injunctive relief. The council could have Commander Sinclair's decision set aside once he makes it, but I would have to get approval for my world, and I am certain they would want me to justify the cost. Yes. Just how much justice can you afford? The Volons are very powerful. If you filed a protest... Again. The fact they got Kosh alone to have a conversation and a walk and talk with him. Please. But I do want to point out again, pointed out before, but Jakar and Londo basically told them the exact same thing. Also, you and I both said that for the 15 seconds they were both on screen, they both stole their scenes. Totally. They do. They're so good. It's what they do. But Narn and Centauri, not so different. Matters of the soul are very private and are thus ourselves forbidden to intervene in matters such as this. You are refusing because of your beliefs? Because of the soldiers. We thought the mid-body were the most intelligent of all races. We're only trying to save our child. That is also what Dr. Franklin believes he's doing, whose belief is correct. And how do we prove it? No.

[27:25] On this issue, the Minbari cannot take sides. This is back when we're like, God, everything she says is just so profound and deep. Alpha one picking up long range scan. That's actually, that is a chicken shit answer. I don't think so. Is what that is. Continue to run silent. At least caution, at least, um. We don't want a conflict if we can avoid it. The other two guys? Speed to maximum. Jakar and Londo? They're honest. Had the balls to go, no. No, unless you throw enough cash my way. I need a hell of a lot more firepower to take that out. Hello, Jean. I'm Commander Sinclair. Yeah, this is the other love. Welcome to Babylon 5. What do you think of my station? I love that he talked to Gary. Like, he's getting... Insane much. He's talking. He's getting input. Only the med lab. And then he goes to the source. I have to ask you a very difficult question. I know you've been thinking about it. Do I want to live? Yes. Very much. But I don't want the operation. I don't want to lose my spirit. I want to go to heaven, but I don't want to die. There's nothing to be afraid. I had an operation once. A very serious operator. But I'm fine now. I mean, there's a hole in my mind. but i'm fine one of the chosen you were not born of the egg no i'm not you're not as good as me, without life the question is meaningless but life has to be more than just a pulse beat what we hold sacred gives our lives meaning what are we taking away from this child that's a question we can worry about after the operation are you absolutely certain this is the only way to save the boy.

[28:50] I have to refuse to sign the order. I can't allow you to perform the operation.

[28:56] But I'm Dr. Franklin. I said a thing. I have to honor the beliefs of the parents. Otherwise, Babylon 5's charter will be compromised. Let's be clear. Sinclair's decision now is a political one. Not one that's in the best interest of the child. Not one that's in the best interest of the parents. Not one that actually honors the wishes of the parents. His decision is based on how is this going to impact the mission and charter of Babylon 5.

[29:26] That's where his decision is being based out of. And I don't like that. It's safe. It's noncommittal. It's a place that he can sit in and say, this is why we're making this decision and feel like he's justified. But like you said, it actually doesn't answer any question. It's a piss poor reason to make that decision. Let him die. For God's sake, doctor, do you think I want to do this? I have no more choice here than anybody else. I have to be the advocate for the parents because no one else will. I do love that. He said, though, if the commander of Babylon five pushes back every time their beliefs can conflict with those of earth, I think, I think that's a really, um, I think that's what, like, that's what it looks like to be on a journey of inclusion and belonging is to stop, see a situation and to stop and not see it through your experience and your values and your beliefs, but see it from someone else's or multiple other people's and, you know, looking to find those common truths. But the question that always comes back, that always goes unanswered when we have this conversation, where's the limit to that? You walk across, you see, you see somebody being raped, right? Well, that's part of their culture. It's perfectly fine. Is it? Or do you not stop it? I mean, we had this conversation when we watched Stargate. When we watched the episode of Emancipation.

[30:46] Like where there's, there has to be a limit to stuff like that though. Well, you know, and it goes back to, to, to the idea of, are there universal values or universal truths? Um, and, and that is the question that has to be answered. That is never answered. It's not, not by Star Trek, not by you and me, not by anybody. Well, I don't think it, I think it's an unanswerable question given our scope of understanding. Yeah. It's just, that's why you got to take it on a case by case basis. And you got to allow, frankly, you have to allow a human in the real world scenario. You have to have a real world human who is, you know, able to assess that particular situation and make a call on that situation. That is not a universal answer for every situation is the ultimate answer there. As a society, we, we struggle with that, right? It's gotta be a blanket thing. If this happens, this happens, but it really is. It has to be case by case, not even person by person, but case by case. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, you're probably going to get it wrong. And the next time there's another case, it's probably going to be somebody else who would do it differently than the way this first person would. So who's right? Who's wrong? Yeah. You must be our beacon home.

[32:05] Just rest. I wonder if that's the moment Franklin made the decision he was going to do it when the kid reached over and handed him the egg. Sean, I, um, I'm dead. I'm glad you didn't get your way. I'm grateful for the commander's wisdom. This is better. Sorry, I can't agree with you. Wouldn't it be great though, right there, if Tatia says, and I appreciate that you were doing what you thought was best for my son. It would be great. And there's no way he's going to say it. No, no. Because he doesn't even believe that. He doesn't appreciate Dr. Franklin for anything. And, you know, there's a question we've never really discussed here. We always talk about having to understand other people's culture, other people's culture. This case is typically we're talking about from the direction of Franklin to the parents. We never talk about the other direction. The parents need to understand where Franklin's coming from. Yeah, you're so right. We never talk about that particular idea. Like he just wants to save the son. He does not get it. He does not understand. And rather than just like shut him down and whatever, they never seek to educate. They never seek to bring him in and show him their way. It's just their way. And this is how it has to be.

[33:20] And, you know, that might be right in this particular situation, given the nature of how this is going down. But always in this situation, when we talk about trying to reach out and understand the other side of it, we never, we very, very rarely ever talk about it coming back on this side. Yeah. That's such a good point. I think about it like we look at it through the lens of a dominant culture perspective. Dominant culture should pause and look at whatever, but. Yeah. I mean, how dare Franklin intrude upon their beliefs? Franklin's trying to save their kid. Yeah. How dare they intrude on his, you know, or how dare they not understand that that's all he's trying to do. Why are they being mad at him? That's all he's trying to do is to save their child. I think it's just such an important thing to understand. And here is it's just find what's common instead of focusing on what's different or oppositional. They just kept restating their position and there's, there's no, there's no connection or movement that can come from that. It's like, yeah, I know you feel that way. Oh, do you feel that way more strongly? great I feel this way.

[34:17] There was a commonality here through all three, even the Epoel Sinclair, and he didn't go here either. He ended up going to politics of the station. But if they all could come together and realize that really they all just want what's, quote, best for the kid. Now, what is best is different from each perspective, but they can find that commonality. There's real conversation that can happen from that. You know, but to be fair, in this particular situation, our friend Ron over in council chambers does point out, and rightly so, multiple times, the parents have talked about how the confidentiality of all that is sacred has been paramount. So they can't tell him about stuff. You know, but I don't know. They need, they need to say this. Our beliefs are private and this is sacred to us. This is very important. And we believe that what is best for our son is to suffer what's coming towards him, to let the waters wrap around him. They don't have to share this stuff about their faith or their belief, but they can also still acknowledge that all he wants to do is to save their son. Yeah. And that this is hard for Franklin too.

[35:14] Yeah. You know what I mean? Like if they came at it from, I can see Dr. Franklin, I can see that you are trying to do what you believe will save our son. And we appreciate that very much. And you're passionate about that. We see that. And we believe you're wrong that you're, that what you want is not what is best for our son, because we hold these beliefs that are sacred and private and they're held above all else. But well, in Texas, Alan shock in there says, they basically said that yeah but what they didn't say was we see you trying to do what you believe is best for the kid you can't even if you don't understand our way we understand that you're trying even though you we've tried to tell you this and you don't understand we still understand that you're trying to save your son and that's that's that's commendable but you're wrong and they could say that and then we can well then we can have that conversation yeah anyway let's turn back into this if i stand by and do nothing sinclair will have you thrown off the station no he won't but he should you should I'm already packed as you should boy is gonna die in an hour if I do not believe, And no one, not you, not Commander Sinclair, not those poor deluded parents is going to stop me. We're going to preserve this job. Say again? It's a prayer for a spirit. My prayers have to be just as good as theirs, right? There she is.

[36:29] And with the stories complementing each other, the disobeying is happening at the same time. They're showing it back to back. I mean, this is what we loved about TKO. And raved about for TKO for so long. It's the same thing. Not good.

[36:45] Help!

[36:48] So, Sean, how do you feel? Here, here. Commander Sinclair!

[36:53] He's got that Commander Sinclair energy. But I don't feel different inside. Well, see, I told you. You did it. You did it anyway. It's me! I don't feel any different. For that, Eva! On to that, Eva! Anu, Pitano, please! Pitano! Unholiness spawned you! No! Don't leave me! What have you done? Don't leave me. Thing is, it's ugly enough right here, and it just gets so much worse. It's all right. Yeah, see, this is where I, you know, I've decided I have a position on this episode. Yeah. Franklin should have suspended the parental rights and taken away their rights. Yeah. For this child. Because that would not have happened. If. I gave you a direct order, doctor. You disobeyed it. I should ask for your resignation right here, right now. You wanted it yours. Don't tempt me, doctor. Who asked you to play God every damn patient who comes through that door? That's who they want us to make it better or make it not so they want to be healed and they come to me make it not So, well, if I take the responsibility, then I claim the authority to I did good tell them both know it Dude, no one is gonna take bigs. His action is ass off right now, man. That is oh Yes, put that on his highlight reel commander. I'm looking for, what is it i think you should come to medley oh here we go i think you both should come i don't want to watch i'm so steeled against this right now yeah i really am.

[38:20] I promise you when we get to sleeping in light jeff stone stone i am not allowed to forgive either but if i could i would that's huge my husband has brought the i'm curious enough to know, I'm curious enough to want to know what forgiveness looks like in their society, given this conversation you and I have had over the course of this whole show. He needs to rest. He will. Wow. He just told us what he's getting ready to do. He did. Yeah. Oh, my God. He just said, I'm going to kill him. Traveling robe, and he's going to rest. Oh, my gosh. I'm waiting for an apology. You better check the temperature in hell first. Now, this is the thing. If this was a Star Trek episode, this would be the end. They'd walk off, oh, they're going to fly away, and it's all great. Boys and girls, this is not a Star Trek episode. Buckle up. Does Sean know wearing this robe? Yeah. What's about to happen? He's got to know. I finished the research on their people as we discussed. The great egg, the great journey, the great song. It's all so great. The days of Amuda traveling robe. Bum, bum, bum!

[39:30] That high hat on the upbeat I like how they have people just in the right spot where he has to run between them, Oh my god You did it, This was not our son. This was only a shell. There was nothing to do but end the pain of the shell. I'm going to tell you, Brent, this is why we have atheists. Because people who are like, if you believe, if your God is telling you that was the thing to do, then I want nothing to do with that God. I've decided not to ask for it this time. No, we should be fired. You should never have asked me for a ruling. All right. I was arrogant. I've decided not to ask for your resignation. Because I knew what I was doing. Because there's a hundred more episodes we've got to produce first. Maybe we'd all be better off if there was no God. I'm trying to tell you that what makes us human is that we care. Are you okay? No. Fine.

[40:31] F'd up insecure and erotic and whatever the East had for. You know, I think Franklin did the most human thing he possibly could have done. Yeah. But listen, when we set this in space and you have various aliens and different things like that, but, uh, yeah, it's just going to go to credits, right? No, we got a lot of stuff to go. Oh yeah. Yeah. We'll pause it for a second. Sorry. You're right. I thought, I thought that was going to go off into the, into the, uh, there's a whole other B story. But, but here's the thing, like when you place this out there in the context of sci-fi with aliens and all that kind of stuff, right. To say this is the most human thing we ever could have done is, is throws it into relief, but to sit back and go, it's, it's the most human thing. human response.

[41:14] I love that line. What makes us human is that we care, and because we care, we never stop trying. Also, at the same time, what makes us human is we have so many different ways to make us hurt. Yeah.

[41:26] You know, and it's because we care that we try. It's because we care we're trying to do this. Texas, Anishok brings up a really good point, and Neil backs it up too, but we learn later about Franklin being a foundationalist and how, you know, they're trying to seek all the names and identities of God and from coming in here talking about inventing God and things like that. Is that what the foundationalists are doing? Because I thought that's what Brother Theo and his group did, was trying to see all the names of God. They want to know about all of them, right? And counsel helped me – because I know like – I think they wanted to understand all of them. The foundationalists were trying to understand the name, or it might be the other way around. I always just thought the foundationalist was just a like neo-religion – like it's kind of religious but not religious all at the same time. Like gives them the ability to be religious without actually being religious. Like it just that's always was my impression of what foundationalism was in this world so that was like i thought it was around the lines of uh hey there's aliens so there's other religions out there yeah so we want to know about that like yeah and maybe it's really similar to what brother theo and everyone has in the like yeah god has many names and many things but it's still all just god i like how neil describes it foundation lists are basically the non.

[42:46] Butthole atheists spoken as an atheist himself. I would figure that's more like agnostic than anything. Yeah, yeah. But, sure. Non-butthole, I like that.

[42:58] You know, if you're going to be an atheist, don't be a butthole. Right? If you're going to be anything. Also, if you're going to be religious, don't be a butthole about it. Don't be a butthole. Just be the non-butthole version of whatever. Put that on a t-shirt. What happened? Nothing. Nothing? From here on out, Biggs as a doctor is like, or Franklin as a doctor is like, I'm never telling people what I'm doing again. I'm just doing it. I'm just going to doctor and they can deal with it. Yeah. Cause no one can doctor like Dr. Franklin. Well, of course not. All right, Brent, that was it. We made it through believers for the second time. Talk to me about it. You know, I wasn't nearly as emotional about this one as I did the first time I went through it. Yeah. I really wasn't like i remember watching this the first time i was like no no no damn it no like i probably should have pulled my reaction from the reaction video that i did oh yeah which by the way jeff this would have been my second reaction video ever isn't that wild ever was this one um i'm i'm gonna stand by what i said earlier this is a terrific sci-fi episode top to bottom yeah all the way around i thought this was a masterfully done episode i can see why jms would have been tickled to death with this episode. They went places. They did stuff here. No other sci-fi show is ever going to do or has ever done at least of their time. And I still don't know that I ever want to watch this episode again.

[44:26] You know well you know but i think i'd be more okay with watching it now again, going into it katrina makes the point that the first time we watch it we didn't know how it ended and this time we did so we got to see how all the pieces led to that yeah and i and i think that and we were ready for it yeah you're you're emotionally ready for i think that's the thing i think the the this time i enjoyed this more because i knew it was coming and i could see it building right and that was interesting to watch i like well you could also have that conversation along the way knowing where it was going to go this is what's going to this and all those pieces was the first time i was going to say i liked it but i appreciated it because it was so jarring and shocking and unbelievable that that happened but then you watch it the second time you're like well of course that's what happened nothing else could have happened this really is very well executed we talked a lot uh about messages yeah during this i think i think we got more out of it this time than we did the first time. Yeah. And if we can be clear what we're doing, Jeff, you and I had a conversation a couple episodes ago, maybe while we were in between these last two episodes. I don't remember where.

[45:38] Just because we're now putting... Uh our full reaction both on audio and video those are out there we're not necessarily rehashing everything that we said during the episode like that's not our goal here yeah just to you know we're moving our conversation forward a little bit so sorry just want to make sure people out there understood what we that what we're doing is we're doing on purpose go ahead what were you saying so we you know we got a lot of messages out of some last time and this time but i personally i feel i got more out of it this time than last time from a message dive into it what What did you get? Well, I think we talked about it so much during the episode itself, but a few things that popped out for me.

[46:14] One of the things that Babylon 5 has been so good at is just tossing out these little nuggets that are great. And I liked one that Sinclair said. Two things Sinclair said. One was, what makes a religion false? If one has to be right, don't they all have to be right? And who decides? Just that, again, what we talked about, who decides? You know, and what's right and what's wrong or what's real and what's not. Well, is there universal truth? Is there universal value? Is there universal whatever? And here's what I'm going to say to that, because we said we'd have to have this conversation later because the show brought it up, and I'm going to bring it up, all right? If you believe in a God, if you believe in a maker of some sort.

[47:02] Right, then you by default believe in a rule, a lawgiver. You believe in a source of moral authority that is higher than this existent plane, right? And that becomes where the right and wrong come from, is it's higher than us, which means it crosses cultures. Yeah. Right? Now, that's for the universal truths. There are some things that certainly still are culturally based, right? Right. But the things that are higher than that, and I think that's where when people look at old scriptures, and I'm not just saying Christian scriptures, I'm saying other old scriptures as well, and you see rules that were crafted and connected, a lot of times we fail to understand.

[47:53] Uh, delineate between the universal laws of morality and the cultural laws of morality that were given in that particular time and era. And in that context. And, and then we bring those forward and bad things happen. Now, that being said, if you don't believe in a God, if you are, let's say an atheist or something else, and I don't know what else it would be. Um, and I'm not. So is there universal truth? Because then where does it come from? And I, and the answer, and I, I'm, I am not a person who can discuss that because I am not of that mindset.

[48:29] So I, I don't know, but if you, if you don't believe in any sort of a higher power of any, any sort of a, a moral lawgiver, moral code giver, um, that, that, uh, is on a higher plane, I guess to say, then perhaps there is no such thing as universal truth. And in case in some cases rape could be okay and killing children could be fine i guess maybe i don't know look at the vorlons in the shadows i think that's just a really good example of that where they see themselves as that higher power and for one of them it's okay to manipulate be go behind the scenes actually they both manipulate and go behind the scenes but one is all about sowing chaos the other one is about doing order and in sowing cast like they just they do horrible murder stuff and that's great for them justin you know who we meet on zaha doom's like yo this is what you do you know mr morden's all about it yeah and so like it makes me think and i'm i'm 100 sure this exists somewhere but take an atheist from the west an atheist from the east, very different cultures right do they do they agree on any universal truths and if they do from where did they come yeah my assumption assumption is that they're rooted in what.

[49:48] Whatever dominant religions are in their areas influenced i'd be interested to talk to like uh uh what's a person who studies culture a sociologist uh whatever this anthropologist or something anthropologist yeah there are scientists who study this sort of stuff i would be really curious to know, are there in general universal truths that exist all over the globe, no matter who you are? Like, like, is it wrong to kill a child in every culture? Like just willy-nilly or to just kill, forget the children, just to just kill. Or is it perfectly considered perfectly acceptable? No big deal. Somebody's just dead. There may be a – I think you always – it's easy to point to the one lone tribe out there that has no – they're stuck on an island or in some rainforest or something, right?

[50:42] And – but I think those tend to be the more – what do you call those? The outliers. The outliers. Yeah, thank you. But I'd be real curious if in a civilized world throughout history and throughout cultures, if there are still those. Like just from a sociological standpoint, I'm real curious. I don't know. If anybody knows, email us. We'd love to know. It'd be cool. And that's Earth, right? And then you blow it up to the galaxy in Babylon 5 and see if those things exist. I think that's a lot of what Brother Theo and his monks were searching for. Yeah. What are those commonalities? Nothing Sinclair said was sometimes doing the right thing doesn't change anything. That's, that's, that's just truth. You know, and Captain McCarty said the same thing. It's possible to, it's possible to do the right thing and still lose. Yeah. That doesn't make us flawed wrong. That makes us human. Yeah. Yeah. And I would argue, God, I'm going to argue on Franklin's behalf here. Okay. That if doing the right thing doesn't change anything, it still matters if you did the right thing or not. Say that one more time. Even if doing the right thing doesn't change anything, it still matters if you do the right thing or not. Yes. Agreed. And Franklin did the right thing and it changed nothing.

[52:06] Yep. I am, um, much like the Tuvix stuff. I have a clear right and wrong that I believe that I've taken a side on. I don't, I'm not down the middle on Tuvix. Right. Yeah. You're very clear. I'm not down the middle on this one at all. I'm a hundred percent on Franklin's side here. I really am. I really am. I, I get where the parents are going. I get, I get their reasoning for it and I think they're wrong and I think they should have lost, uh, they, they should have lost, uh, control of their child and, and that child should have been taken away from the state and it was proved right. It was proved right. I agree. And I didn't think I was going to come in it, coming into this. I didn't either. Yeah. I didn't either. Cause I get it there. He's a shell. This is not our child. We're ending this thing, which is purporting to be our child. When the dad looks there and says, what kind of demons spawn did you come from? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Those, those it's, it's tough because it's literally passing judgment on a culture, but they're not fit to be parents. No, no, no. Unfortunately, unfortunately not. Um, and this, you know, Kosh and in here, I'm going to go passing judgment like a Volan. Uh, you know, Kosh says of the Narn and the, the Centauri, uh, basically both should pass away. Mm-hmm.

[53:26] Like neither are worthy they're already dead kosh says in this one it's too the everything's moving it's too late for the pebbles to vote jeff let's have that conversation what did kosh mean by that what do you think he meant it's too everything is that the boulder is already rolling or something like that it's too late for the pebbles yeah the avalanche has already started it's too late for the pebbles to go there it is i'll tell you what i think it is i think it aligns directly to sinclair's the kosh thing was the camel's nose in the tent so what he's saying is i'm the avalanche like they've already violated my someone's you know medical whatever and i'm an avalanche y'all are just pebbles it's too late for you to have a say i'm not sure that that's what he was saying no what do you think no i think he was talking way bigger i i think he might have even been talking about the coming shadow war and everything having to like like this is not just listen what you guys are talking about here this is this is piddly this is dumb there is a bigger thing that is happening here shadows are starting to wake up listen the avalanche is coming and you're out here trying to trying to trying to do all this little stuff and decide whether or not he should live or die or whatever you're going i think he was trying to basically say you're going to die yeah he's going to die you're going to die and your society is going to get wiped off the map your little tiny egg society is going to get gone and it doesn't matter much like the narn and centauri should just be gone and it doesn't matter i i think that.

[54:55] Might be more of what he was saying to them although yours.

[54:58] Makes far more sense in context well in context i'm just thinking about yours in the context of later stuff because i think.

[55:03] That that makes it sound as if they're saying the shadow war is already done like it's just about to start but you've already lost but kosh like basically kills himself to go fight the fight i think if he believed that he wouldn't have stood when sheridan was reading the riot act i think it would have been like no i'm not gonna put myself at risk because y'all gonna die anyway unless sheridan his relationship with sheridan changed him maybe, Maybe, you know, Sarah points out here, and this is where we're really going to dive into future lore of stuff. Kosh has no point that the shadow war is coming. Is that true? So she captures herself later on. She goes, oh, I thought you were talking about what Sinclair was saying. Sinclair had no idea it was coming. Sinclair has no idea. I was going to say, Kosh? He knew. I think clearly knows exactly what's happening. Yeah, we saw that in the beginning. Yeah, yeah.

[55:56] So, yeah, I mean, and I think ultimately that's what Kosh was saying was, hey, this whole thing you're going to do. going through right now, it doesn't matter. Yeah. I think ultimately that's it. It doesn't matter. So let them die, let them live, whatever. It doesn't matter. There's bigger stuff happening right now. I think is, is ultimately really where he was going. I think you're right. There were two lines they had in here, Jeff message wise that really jumped out to me. Yeah. One is, uh, and I, I, I think this is, this is one of those good things from JMS and, and I'm good. I'm saying this is like from JMS. This was written by David Gerald, not JMS. But he says this, what we hold sacred gives our lives meaning. And I think there's a lot of truth to that.

[56:38] What it is that we hold sacred, whether you're atheist or not, we all hold stuff sacred. We hold our families. We hold our children. We hold certain beliefs. We hold certain things sacred. Those are the things that we ultimately wind up serving our lives for. And those are the things that give our lives meaning. I love that. But I love Sinclair and Franklin and what they said at the very end. What makes us human is that we care. And because we care, we never stop trying. But what makes us human is that we have so many different ways to hurt.

[57:12] If you don't have the possibility of hurting, you don't have the possibility of caring. Yeah. The idea that we care is what gives us, like, the other side of that is that we can hurt. It's the possibility of hurt, right? It's like in order to live, you actually have to be possible to die. That's what lorien says later exactly that when we knew we were going to be immortal forever nothing mattered once we were mortal love love and all these things could come to be go me well done good brain well jeff you know what we've talked ad nauseum here i believe about believers we've watched this episode for the second time possibly for the last time but i I think I'd be okay watching it again. Just not right now. Maybe what we do have to do. What we do have to do right now is we have to rank this episode. We're putting it in our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking Babylon's five season one second viewing order because now we know everything.

[58:11] Our current top five, Jeff, number one is Deathwalker, two is War Prayer, three, Sky Full of Stars, four, Parliament of Dreams, five, Born to the Purple. Jeff, where do you put believers? It's hinging on one episode right now, and I'm just kind of thinking myself through, thinking through the impact and the importance of the episode. And I think based on what the other episode I'm thinking of, well, actually both episodes have to do with stuff that happens in the future. And the ultimate question we often ask ourselves of which one would I rather watch?

[58:43] Uh, yeah. Believers is going to become our new number four right underneath in the sky full of stars. That's I was thinking above or below in sky full of stars. Wow. Over parliament of dreams and mourn of the purple. Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised this cracked the top five for you. I really am. This is a great, I mean, it was a horrible, great episode. Yeah. Fair enough. I'm curious though. I want to see what we plugged it in. You want to compare it to the first time? Where did we? Of course, remember the first time we weren't ranking as we went. We only did it once we got to the season one wrap up. So where did it land at the end? Although I guess all of ours are really where they landed at the end. It was our number 10 in the season. Was Parliament of Dreams and Born to the Purple above it by the end? Parliament of Dreams was number 13. Born to the Purple was 15. Okay. So we're still tracking. Yeah. Just proving 100% completely accurate and definitive. Once again. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. God, we're good at what we do.

[59:50] Oh my God. Wow. And I get it for being arrogant sometimes. Wow. You're not wrong though. All right. Hey, listen, that's going to do it for believers next week. Jeff got brand new episode on deck. Actually, it's not brand new. We've seen it before. That's why this is for the second time. We're watching survivors. Jeff, do you remember what your prediction was for survivors? I sure do. I thought that this was going to be a home guard episode. Episode home guard was going to bomb uh the council chambers and we would end up doing like a procedural and piecing the story together through the eyes of like some of the more minor characters boy were you wrong on that one yeah well i was wrong as i thought do you remember what you thought it was going to be oh i was just as wrong as you were i said that this was going to be a part two to believers yeah you did i was going to come right off the edge of believers um I said that the people from the great egg are going to like all the ones who had somehow gotten cut open during their lives, because that's the thing, right? Like what happens to people like a kid who falls off his bike and gets scratched? Is he now dead? Like, do they just kill him now?

[1:00:58] They've been living in secret and now they all come out in the open because they see that they actually can can live despite this one thing that happened. And they're coming to Babylon five because they know that this is a place where they can be accepted and free. Although that really sounds like that should have been like an early season two. Can you imagine Sheridan fresh on the station? All of a sudden, all these, these cut open great egg people living in secret come for freedom.

[1:01:23] Man, we had to, I mean, that was like kind of the underground railroad episode for, for the telepath thing a little bit. Wasn't it? Anyway. Yeah. That's what I said it was going to be. Not at all. Instead. We're getting Liana Kemper. We're going to get Liana Kemper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Survivors is another one where I'm like, I feel like I remember this episode and I have, well, actually that's not, I just have zero desire to watch again. Not true. Not true. I'd like to watch it again. You want to watch it again? I do. Well, guess what, Jeff? We're going to watch it again next week. We are right here. Thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks for watching this. If you haven't already subscribe, wherever you're watching or listening, like rate review, do all those things. And it would be super, super cool. if you would share this with somebody else out there, whether they're like Babylon 5 or not. Honestly, I think we need to, as a fandom, as a community, we need to get a little more aggressive around Babylon 5. Quit waiting for people who already like it or whatever. Let's just shove it onto everybody. Hey, person, do you enjoy television? Cool, watch this podcast about Babylon 5. You should also watch the show at the same time. If we don't get more aggressive about it.

[1:02:39] Could be the swan song for the franchise. And while that's a great swan song, it'd be super cool if, you know, if there was more that came out of this whole thing. So with that, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. We're going to get out of here. We're going to call it a day. I'm going to beat Brent to the whole thing, and I'm going to just play the outro. Hey, Jeff. Dang it. I was literally had my finger on the thing. Yeah. Brent, what's going on? Hey, why'd you do it? Why did I do what? Well, you did the thing I told you not to do. Jeff, you keep doing this and I keep telling you I can't work with you if you keep doing this. And if you keep this up, I'm going to need a new co-host and you're going to have to resign from the show. You want my resignation? Bro, you got it. You know what? Nah, I've decided not to ask for it. Oh, thank God. All right, I gotta go unpack.

[1:03:41] Music.