Born to the Purple | For the Second Time

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time paying attention to all the things we didn't know about the first time around and we're still going to be searching for all those sci-fi messages that we find in this series and we're going to be asking what this episode is trying to tell us now with all of that jeff you know we love our games here we sure do one of the games we used to love we played so much during the first run was the prediction game but we can't do that anymore no yeah you know we go back and we see uh you know we'd see what we predicted and how right we were. We're not there anymore. I don't know that this is really a game, but Jeff, I do have a question for you. This is our second watch of Born to the Purple. That's our episode for today. Do you remember what your first thoughts of Born to the Purple were the first time we saw this? I remember loving this episode.

[1:35] It had a couple different stories in it, and I liked all of it. We got a lot about Londo. We learned a lot about the Centauri, and I remember being really high on Garibaldi. Like, I think, in fact, if I remember right in my note, there was a thing of like Garibaldi so far is showing the best, the most leadership on this entire station. Do you remember what you thought of it? I don't. I don't remember what I first thought about it, but I remember what my feelings are of it now looking back.

[2:03] Does that make sense? Like, I can't say, because I'm going to say this and somebody is going to like go back and watch our first episode on the, Brent, that's not even what you thought. So, but here's do what I do remember liking it. I remember liking it a lot. I remember thinking the girl, Lady Adira. What was the name of the prophet lady in Signs and Bordens? Ladira. La Dira. And what was Major Barrett's character name?

[2:31] Morella. Morella. Yes. Lady Morella. Yeah, all ladies. La Dira and then Lady Adira. That's not confusing at all. Wow. But I do remember this Lady Adira. I thought she was just going to be a one and done. And she wasn't really going to impact the story more. But the whole thing of Londo saying, you know, oh, we used to be great. We used to do this. And that doesn't mean anything to me. I would trade it all away just for this. with a simple life. And I remember thinking that was really the focus of what this episode was going to be about. And it wouldn't impact us really beyond that particular point. Oh, boy, was I wrong about that. And totally happy to be wrong about that, by the way. Yeah, she kind of affected the story a little bit. Just basically launched the Shadow War into high gear by getting killed. I mean, it was the thing, right?

[3:23] Everything that went on. That's going to be cool. I'm excited. And Brent, with that, we're going to go, we're going to watch the episode right here, right now. Hey, just want to give everybody a heads up. This is an episode that is full of spoilers. And we could talk about anything from any episode of any Babylon 5 from any season from this point forward. So if you have not seen Babylon 5 yet, you should go do that first before continuing from this point forward. If you're joining us for the first time, every episode is somebody's first. The way this works is Brent and I are going to watch this episode for the second time right here. If you'd like to see the full unedited reaction, you can head over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five first. That's the number five and the word first. And if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting apps, you're about to hear our reaction to this episode. And then we're going to meet you on the other side where Jeff and I are going to share some thoughts. We're going to talk about any messages that we uncover or anything like that. So, Jeff, let's watch Board of the Purple. Let's do it.

[4:28] Man, that music. Yeah. It didn't set a good tone. Infinitely better than Walkabout music, by the way. I was going to say. Infinitely better. The bar was set very high from Go. Right? Sit now. Don't let me sit. Sit. Oh, look. I want to know. Now I want to know what the Centauri word for ass is.

[4:48] I think it's Malari. That's, I see. Is she not perfection? I don't know. She seems to have a lot of... Gentlemen, of all things in life are females. On that of no, Larry, we can at least agree. Yeah, Jakar's really eager. I was like, yes, yes. Ambassador Jakar. Kodoth. I forgot all about Kodoth. I am Kodoth, the new head of your... I would have thought that was... Yes, I wasn't expecting you for several days. So Frodo knit off. I need to begin my duties here, so I booked early transport. Hey, hotspots. How about you and me blow this giant and go play a little... Scan the sector?

[5:34] I love it this is you know jeff i remember i'm pretty sure this is where you and i first started having the conversation of like how people can just do stuff to folks on the station with impunity like you you just pop somebody and like there's nothing nothing no no one even looks right right right no accountability you know ambassadors doing whatever i get it she's probably got diplomatic immunity and all that but still like dang i i've dug it coat i dug coat off She's great. She's an angry narn. Jakar is not digging her, man. No, not at all. It plays like they have a past relationship. I almost feel sorry for Jakar. I mean, it almost plays like he just doesn't like having an attache. He doesn't like having somebody else with him. Or they have a past. It's one of the two.

[6:24] I don't know. He asked for the bottle service, apparently. Okay. How do you not see this and now not start thinking of just the logistics of how this is going to work out? It was the dawn of the third age of mankind. The anatomy of said Centauri. I mean, it works fine. It works great. No, it's fine. Like, I get Londo. I don't know that I've seen the female side of that. Like, where are the attaching ports? I'm going to guess they're spread. I'm going to say probably on the back. In fact, yes, in the council chambers. I got that from Nia. They have six along their back. Okay, but listen, Londo has to be really well hung for a dude. Like, his whole thing went under the table, up and over the table, and onto a card. Well, just imagine, because I figure, like, either way, because they come from around the guy. Yeah. Around, like, they got to be pretty, they're not doing this back to back. They're not, they might be belly to belly, but not back to back.

[7:27] But think for how long that – like to attach to the back. Like look, Adair is not that big of a person. Like you can –, wrap your arms around her and then some more like this is the analysis we came here for andrew says.

[7:43] Look no that's the big question here's the thing everybody's thinking it yours and mine's job with the microphone is to give voice to what everybody thinks when they see this okay what do you think the history is between rodoth and in jacar like is this a former romantic or like i i know i have this they used to be together let's play it this is like their their ex their exes and it did not end well so i'm gonna i'm gonna like i what i think it was uh they were fine like you know just like she was an aid around you know narn central or whatever and uh they had some uh you know little little affairs around the place and and stuff but then uh she found out that he used to have a relationship with her mom and he was literally just like um i have to go uh get some narn cigarettes and i'll be back in 20 minutes and then left then he became you know big shot guy and whatever and hooked up with code off but then it all came out and so they're like ah.

[8:47] That's my story and at some point she walked in on him and some centauri lady and like evolved people like which i think makes so much sense because that's where adira comes in and that that ramps up the tension so much because like when she came in she's got the sense of like here's a centauri woman up there jacar's eating her up with his eyes just like that time when me and i were supposed to be together in the supply closet and he's like oh god you caught me again it makes sense we should go update the lurker's guide.

[9:20] If lando ever shows up he's still weak in the knees right now for a moment then i thought i was dead you seemed alive enough a few minutes ago, it's the least i can do for the republic ambassador just doing my part i hate it when you call me that so it's my title you wanted all along huh i want no more than i'm getting Keeping in mind that not too long before this, a year before this moment, he knew it was a joke that he got this title in this assignment. And here she is. Don't you love your title? Beaming of better days. This is what I remember. These are my better days, Londo. Thanks to you. This is the foundation for the next four seasons. Yeah. You're needed. In the meantime, I suggest you monitor the gold channels more closely in case there's a second occurrence. I've already seen to it.

[10:15] No hint in that. Like, she's just... What did I miss? I felt that. Jakar and Kodoth are playing Veer's video game, right? Yeah. Watch what... Is it Jakar? Yeah, watch what Jakar does. No, watch Veer's reaction. Would you do that to my thing? Let's know what LCD, oh my god. You have my abject apologies. I was delayed on an important matter of state. Ah, the impressive Ms. Coda. Oh, Ms. What an honor. Yeah. God, she's awesome. Oh, and Londo knows her from before also. You are a treasure, Veer.

[11:00] He grabbed him by his double chin. Do we see this guy or someone from his species after this episode? We don't see this guy. But do we see somebody from his species after this episode? It's difficult. I don't think so. He doesn't trust me. You forget your place, Centauri. Do you know why a drunken fool like Malari has the power he has? Because his family has been collecting dirt on other families for years, like all the noble houses of the great Centauri Republic. He looks like he's just an egg away from being a soul hunter. Yeah, a forehead egg away, yeah.

[11:39] Not all Centauri play such games. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what did he just say? Up like you but maybe i didn't hear anything but like i thought i heard something there he doesn't trust me you forget your place centauri a slave must never lie to her master i like what they're talking talking about here with the centauri because like this is establishing them as just this you know political quagmire of stuff okay but we certainly fool like malaria we certainly get the the idea here that the centauri republic is not what it once was correct like this is really building that that centauri used to be here and it is now not that anymore and it's freshly not that anymore this is hundreds of years later everybody's cool and generations have passed like it's the same generation still here that was up here and uh all you you definitely catch the political upheaval and the the jockeying and all that sort of stuff that's happening you know with the centauri andrew lets us know that trackus is a goalion which we never see again okay and sarah sarah just mentions that londo knows codoth from the night before in my in my story they go back he had to do with the centauri woman because his family has been collecting dirt on other families for years like all the noble houses of the great centauri they'd be great they never come back to this do they he was the mind prince.

[13:04] Another piece of like way wild op tech that we don't see again you don't want to be seen with i've already made a reservation at fresh air finest restaurant on babylon five finest what if we're seen together what will people say they'll say they'll say ambassador is a most fortunate man jacar's gonna watch and be like live our lives for appearances there goes my.

[13:33] This is the Wando we need. But when I look beneath the mask, I am forced to wear. Yes. I see only emptiness. Yes. And then I think of you. Jeff. This is everything.

[13:46] Everything. You're catching it, right? Oh, yeah. When I look beneath the mask, I am forced to wear. Forced to wear.

[13:53] It is empty. Fast forward. He is later forced to wear a mask. Uh-huh. or the drach and the keepers and it is full of something where he be you see you know what i mean think about this oh we we can dive into this more later but seriously he here at the beginning of the story he has to wear a mask in the centauri court in the centauri whatever and there is nothing underneath it we get to the end when he is now the emperor he must still wear a mask but that mask is meant to protect the rest of the galaxy that mask is meant to protect his mission to keep all of this stuff at bay and he is he is just holding this like like a like like toby mcguire on the front of an l train in chicago you know holding it back well i think there's there's such a path because i think he has to wear multiple masks through this i think of coming of shadows i think of um you know you know the episode where he rips up the thing and you know goes to you know in the fifth season or whatever i can't remember what it's called but he has to wear these masks and pretend to be things he doesn't necessarily want to be. And then in the fifth season, when he's emperor, I think it's when he was talking to Jakar, and he's just like, before I had no power and all the choices. Now I have all of the power and can make no choices. And it's almost as if what he's saying is what's behind this mask is the power. Because what he doesn't realize right now is that he's the most powerful in his whole life is right now. He can make any decision, any choice, whatever.

[15:22] He can do whatever he wants. And he's staring at what he wants for the rest of his life.

[15:28] But he doesn't think there's anything behind this mask he has to wear. So he can't make – he feels like he can't make that choice. Imagine if like right here she's like, you know what? Forget dinner. Let's book a ticket on the Asimov and get the hell out of here. Let's go. And he's like, yes, let's do it. And he just takes off. But she has that slave contract. He doesn't know it, but she has that slave contract. What does that mean if she just runs? Well, he'll take care of it. He does take care of it. I don't know. Can he? Is he allowed to take care of it? Is he does i don't know what's the entire law i didn't say i don't remember that part we'll get there yeah but i just i mean my god like like and you're you're not wrong like the the the course of the masks that he has to wear and what lies beneath but this is where we start that's where we end with londo and his mask and what's underneath oh my gosh the everything that he thought he wanted and all the other masks he's had to wear are not masks like he's never wanted any of these or he thought he wanted them you know except for the one where they're like hey what do you want what do i want mr malden i want them burning i want this entirety back at the top i want he wants all of the stuff that he's telling us right here in episode three, yeah it's incredible incredible but imagine what you can do it just in a moment of of anger a moment of passion a moment of whatever you know you forget who you are and man.

[16:53] I love how she's actively helping him knowing that it's her look at that smile on her face look at that smile, that smirk again the eyebrow raise make yourself more comfortable while I finish the drinks I kept on that idea. Yeah, I like that idea. You're not going to slip anything. Oh, no, no. You're not going to put a thing up to my head or anything like that. No, no. I want you to remember, Brent, that when you watched this the first time, this is when you started to ship Garibaldi and Ivanova. Yeah, I'm glad that didn't work out. I'm glad that didn't work out. Because that would have just...

[17:38] Music.

[17:46] His eyes roll back into his head. That kiss ran deep. So deep, put Londo to sleep. It's literally a portable telepath, and we never see this thing again. Look. Got his eyes all rolled back. He's out of his mind, and he's just like, you're my everything. The access code for your purple files. Wine. Tell me now. Women. Song. Triple cipher. Wine. Women. Song. this guy how did you remember that how did you do that oh my word like how do you forget that that was epic remember their passwords wine women song peekaboo like i remember peekaboo, also she's got to be like oh my god i can't believe i had to use a mind probe to crack that what's that little red thing on the back of the monitor there that's the dell logo.

[18:40] Look at how thin that monitor is though that's not like a crt thing well because it's a future monitor active matrix multimedia display all data to crystal board she just downloaded all of his files i wonder if with that mind probe thing you could like implant i like you know when i snap my fingers you'll think you're a chicken see i would think that works more like um like truth serum that we have today whatever that is sodium pentothal yeah like like it doesn't so much extract it as much as it makes you very willing to just yeah like have no bar it's whatever get my coat will yes ambassador yes it's like beer beer has no chill dude would be would be better if he was doing this on purpose he's not right no he's just legit and honestly it just These moments of pure naivety and joy in Veer really just make everything that's to come heartbreaking, really. He's going to murder someone with his own hands. I have every confidence in you, which is why I am giving you full ambassadorial authority. Be proud, my boy. You are now the voice of the mighty Centauri Empire. Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. This is an opportunity.

[20:08] Go now. I'll be along later to see how you're doing. That's the gif. That's the spirit. Yes, sir.

[20:15] Don't give away the homeworld. No, of course not. That's another good one that I don't think anybody's made. Don't give away the homeworld. It would have been cool. She's like, meet me at the Galactic Boutique. You can buy me something nice. Does she not have to, like, work anymore? Like, she had that one night where she was on stage. Squeeze it in. You know? Although she's probably, like, I imagine Londo's paying for...

[20:39] Her time. Yeah, her time. Yeah, she saw, like, real love on the Sokalo. Keep pushing, cork face. Out of my way. Cork face. Out of my way. That's a great, that's a great, like, insult. Cork face. The script had a word that started with F, but then like, oh, let's go. Adira? He fixed it in looping. Adira! She's not their ambassador. My name is Trakis. We have a great deal in common. Adira has betrayed us both. Let's talk. I still have a hard time believing that you're going to catch an ambassador If I can get there, Trakis will never find me Security or anything like this Of course And don't worry You'll be safe at my place until then, Adira, a non-agent, You must be mad She is Centauri She's a slave Duly contracted by the laws of your own republic And by those same laws as her owner I can be held responsible for any crime she commits. He's very short. She's used you. Viridian? Who's that? Who's that? Who's that? I don't like that. Like, if you leave us. You must find her. Get out. She lied to you. She didn't care for you. I said, get out. Right. I said, good day, sir.

[22:07] Star-laced this. Commander, Ambassador Jakar. I am the ambassador. Where's Ambassador Molari? Oh, Ambassador Molari is busy with other important matters, but he has given me full authority to negotiate on behalf of the Centauri Republic. He does not talk like this throughout the run of the show, right? No. Underling! In the interests of all our government, perhaps we can begin the talks while Ambassador Molari is found. Commander, I have done my best to cooperate, but this latest insult cannot be tolerated! I said return, but one Ambassador Molari is here and not before. In the meantime, Koda will represent the law regime. Thank you, Ambassador. I shall endeavor to represent our people to the best of my ability. Just don't give away the home world. Okay, here's what's awesome, though, about this. One, I love Koda's enthusiasm, right? She's just like, this is great. I'm going to do it. But here, three episodes in, three episodes in the pilot, we have been educated that the Centauri and the Narn have deep, deep-seated hatred for each other, right? Also...

[23:15] They ain't so different. The way they're kind of treating it, like the lines they're dropping, the parallels between them. Like there's this little sub-message that even in our greatest enemies, there's a lot of ourselves. Very similar. They're very similar. I need to just point this out of all things. We've been talking about a lot of makeup stuff here today. Our audio listeners are not going to be able to necessarily understand what's going on here. But I rolled the video back about a second and a half. And it's this we're locked on code off here smiling just cheesing wide mouth open she has the most human teeth i have ever seen on an alien they're great teeth i mean those are just like there there's no there's no color differentiation there's no spiky whatever maybe that's to show us the narn actually aren't that bad because the spiky teeth are the ones who are actually you know you know i mean like and then the way that's supposed to go look at look she just looks so, enthused yeah whatever she's about to do i think she gets so mad when jacar says lando and bring him here what if he refuses and i hurt him say no data bank porky you want to see dancers come back in an hour too late numbo, Let's do something. Mmm.

[24:38] Bad. Mmm, bad. he just patted him on the head i was right about you arc you run things tough so what is it you want well we're looking to hire some dancers for a private show get the girls out here, sinclair's good at this have yourself a good look when you're done his name's nork Bald guy who doesn't speak named Nork. He's like, hey, can we wait and actually book those dancers? This is my department. Ladies, we need some information about Adira Terry. She's not in her quarters, but it's imperative that we find her immediately. Who? Adira has a friend named Hira Akshi. They've roomed together for a while. And where might we find that friend? She lives somewhere in Brown 6. Oh, Dillon says in the council chambers chat that Nork is a slang word in the UK. Hopefully we're not going to get in any YouTube trouble for saying it. I'll pay for it. New grass.

[25:39] This guy is infinitely more intimidating and dangerous looking than any other criminal we get on this show. Looks like Douglas has your dancer. Tiny dancer. The alien sector somewhere on level four. Security, she's in the alien sector level four. Right in front of his face. Whoa! That is for Adira, and this is for me. Dude, you just do that on Babylon 5, man. There they are, my green files. My dear Jakar, how can I ever thank you? Ben points out really great in the chat. It's surprising that Psycourt doesn't have rules specifically preventing workarounds like that from happening. Sinclair worked everybody on this one. Adira, you could stay. Now that we have seen beneath our masks, we could have great times together. Lando, you're sweet, but the wounds are too fresh. All right. I don't like this. I don't like this. No. You're sweet, but the wounds are too fresh. Proudly as a free woman. Someday, come back to me. Don't. Don't. Because the day you're coming back... Oh, my God.

[27:04] My ambassador unless she just really was never that into him this is her just trying to get away from him yeah you know like it it isn't imagine that jeff this whole thing and she really never was that into him like this is all an act right now she's like this is just gonna get me some status well she was doing this thing for her slave master right she has a conscience she doesn't want to be like a bad person but even this right now he went and did all this stuff for her so she's she's gonna put the air back on for five five seconds before they head right out the door like long enough to get yeah go home i'd see that i could also see her being like uh you know hey we live in a society where the secrets that we have and the dirt we have on people is important and i have at least um six dirty things i can say about londo malari right right all right Brent, we just finished watching Born to the Purple for the second time. What are you thinking after that? What a good episode, man. Just a good character-driven episode. This is one of those episodes, if you're watching early show for the very first time, you catch an episode like this and you're like, okay, I can keep going with this show. You know what I mean?

[28:20] Nothing in this really stands out as anything super important. Nothing stands out as anything that's going to really, uh, impact the rest of the show long-term, you know, but a compelling story all the way through little paint by numbers effects, makeup, all that sort of stuff feels very, you know, early nineties, but well done, well written, well acted, well directed, good makeup all the way through, you know, I good, good episode, man. I, yeah.

[28:52] Other than that, it's rather unremarkable until you get to the second watch. And this is a quite remarkable episode. It really is. Really is. You know, this is a, first of all, you realize that Lady Adira, this whole story, the whole story of Babylon 5 hinges on this character. Everything. We never see her alive again, right? No. Well, you know, because the next time we actually see her, she's dead. Is dead, right? It's the Day of the Dead, right? Mm-hmm. And then and then I think we see like a couple of like clip show flashback type things. Yeah. From this episode. Yeah. And that's it. But but the whole story hinges on this chick and and setting up Londo for where he is mentally right now to where he to where he dives in. It's what makes it's what makes signs importance really punch signs importance would not punch as hard without this episode doing what it does, you know. And then the whole stuff with Ivanova and Garibaldi playing cat and mouse and Ivanova thinking she just has one up on him, snarking, snarking. And then there's Garibaldi. And you're just marveling at it going, wow, this really was a good episode. Like I liked it before.

[30:01] And I love this episode now. What I love about it is when we watched it the first time, we picked up on it. Like we didn't know where it was leading, but we were able to pick up on like he's not where he wants to be. He's not living the life that he wants to live. He longs for things that seem out of reach to him. And then, like you said, the rest of the series went on to tell that story. And we talked about it during the reaction. But he had a line about the masks he is forced to wear and how there's nothing behind it. Oh, my gosh. And I think, like, I agree. Signs and portents has more weight with this. But so does coming of shadow. So does long twilight struggle. you know like all of those times when londo showed up with just massive bravado was hinged right here like this is that pivot point if he had never met adira.

[30:49] And just stayed a cynical, lonely, old Republican, then we would have had a very different Londo. But we have this taste. He has this moment of like, God, I could have this, and it could be so great. We talked a little bit about when she left, did she really like him or whatever, but what was stopping him from going with her? You know, I mean, literally in the episode, so we'll go back even further. We know from dust to dust that his getting this assignment was a joke. Ha ha ha, Londo, you can go do this. And he knows that. He's aware of that. And it's coming in here with that. He gave Veer full ambassadorial authority. Yeah. In a sense, he can wash his hands, walk off the station and whatever. But he felt that draw. I think the societal, cultural draw of this power and title and all that stuff in the Centauri Republic is so strong and has such a root in him. In fact, we know that because we see that payoff in the fall of Centauri Prime when he's like, I am going to be the biggest heel in the galaxy to save the galaxy and the Centauri people. And all of that starts right here. I thought that was incredible. There's a couple notes in the Lurker's Guide. Okay.

[32:16] One came up in our council chambers chat, but I thought this was pretty funny. It says that talking about when he and Adira woke up in bed and he was wearing his little nightie and stuff like that. It says, it's a standard bed. It works fine. But we did have a thing in mind where Londo sits up in bed having just had a wonderful interaction with Adira and his hair is now hanging limp. But in a sudden burst of sanity, we decided against it. I think that would have been kind of hilarious. And this comment on Lurker's Guide, I personally loved. So Larry Dottelio wrote this episode. JMS and Larry Dottelio have a long history together and have done a lot of cool stuff. Dottelio really came from those He-Man days and is very responsible, he and JMS, for She-Ra. So he wrote this one. This is the guy, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This is the guy that in the autobiography, he had the office across the hallway from. And they would mess with each other going back and forth. Little practical jokes and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's pretty fun. But Larry Dettilio's episodes this season are Born to the Purple, which we just said was great. Death Walker, which made our top five for season one, right? An awesome episode. And he's currently working on a third tentatively titled TKO.

[33:36] Yeah. And yes, he uses blood instead of ink, and unfortunately, it's mine. Ha, ha, ha, Mr. Straczynski. But... Larry to tell you i was getting mvp honors from mr aiken right here yeah you really love that episode jeff i i can't wait for the sec because it wouldn't be funny we watch it the second time i'm like oh oh shoot oh my gosh excuse me while i eat this crow here's the thing here's the thing, even if that was the reality you are so in on this episode there's no way you're gonna say that i know you're there's no way you're gonna come clean on that and say that is truth like you're so in on this whole thing i bring such a level of integrity to this show brent that i will i will be honest because i will because i i go back and i say the brilliance of the avonava stuff and the brilliance of how they intercut her grief with the fight and the metaphor that goes back and forth that's what makes that episode valuable the rest of its junk and deserves all the crap that it gets every single bit of it does but it's a great episode because of the things that i just said Yeah, isn't TKO where we first get the, this is really cheesing me off, man. Yeah, yeah.

[34:50] Like, come on, dude. It's great. But we also learned Garibaldi is the recovering alcoholic in that episode, too. Very important episode. So two things that I wanted to point out, I don't know if you have any other things that stood out from the episode. But one, we got the moon-faced assassin of joy in this huge moment. Yeah. And to demonstrate the integrity that Jeff Akin brings to this program, I have a plate of humble pie in front of me.

[35:22] I'm going to eat it right here where I say Michael O'Hare and Sinclair elevated this episode in a very real way. He was great. He had fun. He brought just character to what was a lot of it was a pretty dry script for him. I was really impressed with what O'Hare brought to the character in this episode. I did not mind him in this episode at all. I thought he was fun. he did not come off to me as like leading man he did not come off to me as like the guy in charge.

[35:58] In a lot of ways but i thought what he did what he brought what he offered to this whole thing, was was good you know um and i think that speaks more to what he was given to work with in this episode than it does anything else you know so i can appreciate what you're saying uh and frankly he and uh talia and all those other characters hail hail in comparison to what we saw from londo and ivanova and garibaldi yeah from those three you know and i'm i'm not including andre katsoulis in that you know as much as i love him i'm not including him in this particular episode with that he was a little arch in this one absolutely well over the top he's still but But they're still, and they told us this in Becoming Superman, they're intentionally making him out to be the bad guy. They're intentionally setting us up to believe this about him right now.

[36:53] So because they, or they, he, JMS knows where he's going to take this particular character. So you've got to establish the mustache twirling general baddie badness. You had a great insight in the middle of the episode though, Jeff. Yeah. There's a moment when Londo gives over Ambassadorial control to Veer, and the words he gives him is, don't give away the homeworld. And then there's a moment later where Jakar hands over Ambassadorial control to Natath and says the same thing. Don't give away the homeworld. And then you sit there and say, they're basically the same person. They're doing the exact same thing. They're basically the same person. And I thought that was a really fascinating bit of insight into those two characters and how they're both being played. Yeah, I think it was very intentional, having that line go across to tell us that. I mean, yeah, it's just absolutely brilliant. Did you have anything else on this one, or should we wrap up any messages that we've had? Because that was one of them. I think we've clearly gotten to that spot where it's time to see if we boil this down. Did we find any messages, any new messages, anything that stood out to us during the course of this episode?

[38:03] Jeff, I will go first, if you don't mind. I'm easy. I don't really have any. No, no, no. Maybe I was just so wrapped up in the episode. I really, the whole thing about Londo, and we talked about it so much, the thing I don't want to rehash it all here. Londo is talking about wearing a mask and it's just nothing but emptiness here. And later on, he's wearing a mask and there's so much underneath the mask later on when he's in court. Like that's just so great. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, that means you skipped forward through some stuff. Go back and listen to the reaction because we dive into that there. Outside of that, I didn't have anything. What did you have? I had two things. One of them you just brought up with how Londo and Jakar aren't that different from each other. And I said in that moment, I said, even in our greatest enemies, there is a lot of ourselves in them. And so, I mean, this wasn't the point of the episode or anything. But just in that line, it just really hit me how, again, seeing the humanity, seeing the commonalities that we have in each other. But I think – I got a question on that. Yeah. Do you think that Jakar and Londo are basically the same person? They're different sides of the same coin. Like, is this Kirk and the Romulan commander from Balance of Terror? Ooh, I like that. Between these two guys. You know, like, they're the same person in each world.

[39:22] They think they're very similar in thought pattern and thought whatever and everything that they do. It's just one's on this side of the line, one's on that side of the line. I think so. And I think also the way that they play each other, like, off of each other, they tend to, you know, they're the polar opposite. It as Jakar becomes more sympathetic and we understand him more Londo becomes more of the villain and you know vice versa but the the course of the story slowly kind of brings that around to where they're both they're both finally standing side by side yeah I've got a real through line of this episode and specifically on a second watch I don't think that I would have picked this up on the first watch but follow your heart if Londo had just followed Adira onto that shuttle to Davo, it'd be such a different story moving forward. So different for him. Because Veer is not going to answer Morton's question about destroying all of Narn and ruling the galaxy again.

[40:24] Right. Yeah. Everything changes. And he could have been happy. Could have been. All right. All right.

[40:31] Brent, you get the fun this week. One of our favorite things to do is we are very definitive individuals. We are objective in what we lay down. What we say, I mean, really, I mean, it's just the way things are. And we're building, once again, the second version of the completely accurate and correct ranking of the episodes in Season 1 of Babylon 5.

[40:57] Currently, we've got Midnight on the Firing Line in the top spot, followed by soul hunter this is going to round out our top three brent where do you put born to the purple well it's definitely above soul hunter that's the correct answer yeah the question is is it above midnight on the firing line minimum finally was a great episode it was a great episode but i've got this is where i put my litmus test to it which episode would i want to watch again first i think i'd rather watch born to the purple so in my ranking born to the purple is going to be our new number one is it gonna stay there throughout the course of the season one no it will go down because we know what's coming but i do like both great episodes i'm not trying to take away from midnight on the firing line at all um but i i think i i think the emotional beats that this one hits with uh adira and londo really put this one above the the character development this gives for our characters this puts this one above midnight on the firing line which is all You got my guys and here's my nephew and here's this. And like, it puts it up above that one for me in my book.

[42:02] I do know of the episodes we've watched so far, this is the one I've most looked forward to watching for the second time. Like even when we're just diving in, I'm like, oh, Born to the Purple is going to be a fun one to watch for the second time. We'll find out if all of the episodes are ones worth looking forward to. I'm going to tell you right now, Brent, as we've just now wrapped up Born to the Purple, next week we're watching an episode that I'm just going to be super honest about. I have no desire to watch again. We're watching Infection for the second time. What uh what do you remember about infection what did you think it was going to be all about because we're talking about like what what we thought our prediction was going to be.

[42:42] I i said that this was going to be science fiction 101 every sci-fi show does the infection episode where somebody brings on a disease and it infects it infects everybody and somehow some way they have to eradicate the disease before everybody just goes goes looney tunes you know and and And somebody's going to catch the disease or something of that nature.

[43:06] That's really where I was going to go. Jeff, I want to, if I may, though. No, I'll take that back. What did you predict this episode was going to be about? The exact same thing. We agree this is the alien brings something on the ship and a disease travels around. If I may, I'd like to give you something to look forward to with this episode. Okay. Because if memory serves correct, you fully agreed with me on this. And something i do remember about this episode this episode is one that really i just was as bad as we thought it was going to be until minute 27 and then this episode turns on a dime it does become something great so look for minute 27 yeah real quick i want to hold up from the council chambers chat katrina who says just skip to the 27th, minute yeah we'll uh we'll we'll see i don't think we're going to be able to do that for the integrity of the show but on personal rewatches absolutely yeah we'll see next week if that's what it is uh i myself am just going to establish some boundaries for myself and my enjoyment of the episode and protect protect.

[44:21] Oh, gosh. Well, Brent, that's it. We're done with this episode. We have to head into Infection. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. We're going to watch Infection next week one way or the other. That's what we are here to do. Don't forget to subscribe. He's so not looking forward to this episode. There were some of these early season one episodes, man, where I was just like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get into this show. And this was one of them. I can think of at least one or two episodes where I'm going to be you in this part of the episode prior to that, to that, watching that episode. It's going to be great. But hey, subscribe. Make sure you don't miss these things as they come out. Hits a little bell, all that good stuff. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. Share this show with somebody. This has been a blast. We're so early in this, but I know that Brent and I and our council chambers who get to join us when we record, we've been having an absolute blast recording. So join the fun. and share this with somebody who I can get into it as well. So as we wrap this up, and Brent, until next time, I don't think I have anything else to talk about. Yeah, what's up? What's up? Hey, we need to talk about that contract deal. Yeah, yeah, I know. I agree. Listen, no, no. You have been ducking me for a week on this thing, and we've got to talk about it. Yeah, because I would rather kiss a Jovian tree worm than talk about that thing. Well you have kissed worse things in your lifetime yeah i sure have and brent you can kiss my plump.

[45:47] Music. well done jeff well done oh thank you you know i actually uh i actually wrote that before the episode even started.

[45:49] I mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something,