Deathwalker | For the Second Time

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it jack the year is 2025 the name of the podcast babylon 5 for the second time welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters but then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things we didn't know about the first time around. And, you know, we're still doing the thing where we watch for those sci-fi messages, you know, those things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, maybe, or just tell us how to be better human beings to one another, among other things.

[1:12] We're asking, what is this episode trying to tell it's now that we have time to see this in the full context of what is the Babylon five universe. Fair warning from this point forward, this show will be, I promise you, hopefully full of spoilers. We could talk about anything from any episode across any series within the Babylon five canon. That also includes books, extra source materials, JMS con interviews, anything that's all coming. So if you have yet to watch this series for the very first time, we beg you, stop. You want to experience it as it happens the way Jeff and I did. And we have a whole podcast where you can go join us over there. So go do that Babylon 5 for the first time. Hang out with us there and catch back up to us here for the second viewing.

[2:01] For our second viewing today, we're watching Deathwalker. We're going to be looking for all the stuff that we didn't catch the first time around. I remember, uh, the first time that we watched death Walker and, you know, we've learned in the couple of these that we've done for the second time that our memories aren't what they once were at least time. Well, I think as we watched the episodes and we got, saw the whole series, we tempered and formed a lot of our stuff, but I remember really, really liking this episode and specifically that death Walker and Natoth were total bad-asses. Right. Do you remember what you thought of this one i remember really liking this episode a lot i liked i don't think there was much i didn't like about this episode this also jeff for me was the very first brent watches episode that i ever did that's right and so i was watching this with different eyes knowing also that that people were going to be watching me react to the show so i wasn't just.

[3:05] The whole journey that we as viewers go on with Deathwalker, with who she is and what she's done and what she represents, and is there any redemption that's possible for her and all this? And when we get to the moment where she unveils her plan of like, look, I've done this great thing for everyone. We're going to eternal life. Just we can do it. Oh, but in order for that to happen, we're going to steal life. And people are going to claw each other to death to get their hands on this. And they're going to kill each other just to get this thing. And she's just evil laughing the whole way.

[3:43] I was just, I loved, loved the twist on that and the way she gets away. And then Kosh comes in and that very end, which we haven't seen Kosh, like really since the pilot, it feels like. Pretty much. And he just lays it down as like, no. I loved it i loved it unless jeff you whom i know listened to our original first episode tell me brent you are absolutely wrong you hated this episode because that's entirely possible but my memory is i loved this episode there was a part of this episode that both of us didn't like that much but we appreciated it because it gave us a break like a breather we felt like i think at one point you said that this felt like a two-parter. There was so much that it gave to us, but at the same time, it never felt exhausting or tiring. And a lot of it was because of the Kosh and Talia and Abbott storyline.

[4:41] You mentioned Kosh. We had a lot of thoughts on him that we shared. One of them was that because we hadn't seen him, I was like, Like, why is this dude even here? Like, it serves no purpose whatsoever. I didn't understand why he was on the station and I went so far as to be like, I don't even understand why he's on the show at all. Right. What's the deal with this guy? You said that the, uh, the, the Vorlons and the Minbari are like the older ones, who are like helping out and sticking around for the younger races.

[5:17] Okay pretty good uh and maybe they're kind of like the police of the galaxy who make sure we don't you know bite off more than we can chew and that's why kosh came out to lay it down but i i lumped the minbari into that you did you figured they were both like the two like old races well i mean it's kind of like that like the the minbari while not a first one and not the ancient races they are certainly sort of at least supposedly the elder statesman of the current races yeah you would think they're like the 47th ones but they're probably closer to the 42nd ones right right it's a lot of nerd in that one let's get into it then let's go watch death walker right now for the second time if you're joining us for the first time and you're on youtube you're about to see the reaction the cut up reaction that goes to youtube if you want to see the full and unedited version of this thing, head over to our Patreon page. There's a link down below or patreon.com slash Babylon 5 first. That's the number five and the word first. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, listen, Jeff and I will catch up with you on the other side, but actually hang on because you're going to catch our reactions to this episode as well, but stick around because we are going to share some extra thoughts and talk about these new messages that we uncover. So Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[6:45] Ambassador kash is there something i can do for you i wish to engage your services for what here's a lot more verbose back here what sort of business we will meet in red three at the hour of scampering the hour of scampering jeff yeah what is that so uh i i i hate that line, so much uh-huh oh look how different and what and mystical and stuff we are and it never becomes a thing and it's just i don't know i mean i get it not everyone tells time the same fine you've earthed up everything else now if he came back at some point and he's like oh i said the hour of scampering not the hour of nibbling or something like that cool this is what we drop and walk away oh look how different i am from everything else you see so jms has an answer oh okay okay Okay, here's one of the things. Yeah, here's a legit answer. The hour of scampering is usually about tea time, according to the Vorlon Human Translation Dictionary. Okay. That's all it is. It's tea time, four o'clock. I said tea time is just as worthless of a time-keeping measure for me as scampering. I have no idea what that... Oh, this is such a great scene. Liner Callisto will be docking in May 12 in 7...

[8:11] She's so put out. She's so put out. Seven minutes. Is this where we talk about the thing about people can just beat the hell out of folks? Oh, no, she gets called on the carpet for it. Dude, she didn't let her fall down. She held on to her. Grab the wrench.

[8:36] I've sworn a blood oath. I like that Minbari just standing there like, Like, what? Maybe one of the greatest cold opens in Babylon 5. You know what? You're not wrong about that. That's possible. That really could be true. Kept yelling, Deathwalker. Deathwalker? I thought you might remember that name. I know I do.

[8:57] Yeah, I like this because we get the whole Dilgar war thing. We start learning about how humanity showed up. Why did you attack that one? Listen, sister, if she dies, you'll rot in a cage until you're spotting. Sister. gray that's us your spots turn gray oh my god it is shankar the blood oath blood oath yep my grandfather and his family were there death walker used them in her experiments except my grandfather who managed to escape back to not i think i think this was about the point where i because when she said she is death walker she is death walker i thought that was like like she is a death walker i think it was a type of person a race or something like that yeah just without the word a there like she is death walker she you know she is soul hunter she is you know whatever that is but to actually come to the note no no actually it's a specific person like the butcher of barbacoa i don't know whatever his name is when uh we talked about this the first time you asked the question hey jeff when did you realize that death walker was her and not the people and i said literally when they told us that it was her name i thought the same thing Right. Oh, yeah. Like, is Dillgar, is Deathwalker just another name for Dillgar? And it's really the whole of the people.

[10:11] It could be. Could be. The Dillgar invasion was 30 Earth years ago. If Deathwalker was alive today, she'd be an old woman. Her face is carved into the minds of my entire brood. I smell my grandfather's blood on her hands. I tell you, it is she. Brood. Her brood. Her entire brood, Jeff. Right. Everything there is to know about.

[10:31] You owe me both. All the clearances seem to be in order, and the pay is very generous. However, there's something I still don't understand.

[10:38] Understanding is a three-edged sword. Oh, gosh. Understanding is a three-edged sword, Jeff. Yeah. Now, what does this mean to you? There's your side, your edge, their edge, and probably the real edge. Now, where did you get that from? Rashomon. I don't know what that means. It's a Japanese movie about a rape and a murder and it's told from the point of view of four different people and it's very different. Yeah. Even though it's like objective facts. So I think I've always known that this is the idea. It's a three edge. Well, because first of all, three is an important number in the series, right? Understands the red sword. But this is also something that I know people said in the comments a ton. And the way they would word it is they would say, understanding is a three edge sword. There's your side. there's my side and there's the truth in between right tabulism is a stout it's repairing the damage at an extremely accelerated rate i wish i knew what her species was i've never seen anything like her her dna doesn't match anything we've got on file she's a dilgar dilgar dilgar is a dead race those few that were left after the invasion died when their son went nova computer load history file ea 2230 reference death walker commencing he had some stank when he said dilgar dilgar.

[12:00] Ben, cancel Chambers chat. Dilgar? I hardly know Gar.

[12:21] What do you think about that, Jeff? Keep all the secret. We don't want rumors running around. Yeah, I think right now it's a really good idea. Too many questions. many of them but unhappily in this case yours complicates matters should be great if one of his shankar showed up counselor harock the narn you were to meet in customs was here to bargain with jadur says we must get her to narn alive i will not be denied this you must make this sacrifice for the future you must make this sacrifice all non have sacrificed all you must Make this sacrifice for the future of our people as all Narns have sacrificed at one time or another. So if we take that and lay it against dust to dust, when Kosh, Jaquan, tells him there will be great sacrifice for the universe, right? I think that's the thing. Here, his thinking is for the Narn. That moves him to the universe. Yeah.

[13:24] I like this. Yeah. i like this is tremendous development for jakar just you know for just in the last couple weeks we've seen him now it's like oh okay this is well he's not he's not just you know mustache twirling villain you know i can actually see some of the seeds for like his uh piety being laid down right now but i will not abandon it, And when we get what we want from this butcher, I promise to help you fulfill your vow. I thought also, we gotta do the stuff we gotta do for the Narn, and you're right. You're gonna do what you gotta do, too. My research, a universal anti-agaping. I'm not familiar with the charm. Me either. It's a serum which retards the aging process and prevents disease. It's still unstable and difficult to produce in sufficient quantity. I really like the makeup.

[14:13] Very alien. No fear of growing old. No sickness. That's virtual immortality the ultimate triumph of life the secret is mine sinclair and with the help of your earth i will bring it to all the worlds of this galaxy before the year so at this point you get the feeling that this is someone who probably has committed war crimes but mostly unlike a science like think of the scientific knowledge and advancement that came at the absolute horrible atrocity of concentration camps in nazi germany the exact conversation we had the first time is it mengala and all the stuff that all the experimentation that came and the the thought the thought behind like just saving all of these lives and stuff over here justify right the horrible and the answer is no um but in this like this is the question being posed to us right now or being set up for us right which we had an episode of voyager that dealt very specifically with this as well so um but here's the thing like so she so she did this but she gets this thing that could be very very useful like you know like with bester we always talk about where he's the hero of his own story right she's the hero of her own story like she's she's doing this for good not for destructive purposes even though the way she went about it was incredibly destructive that's where we're sitting right now now you and i know the end of the story.

[15:38] That's where we're sitting right now. And just, this is a masterful way. This episode is written by JMS. Like, I don't know if I want to say this is his first master stroke as a writer in Babylon five, but it might be the first time that I was like, yes. Like front to back, the way this story is constructed, the way this character is constructed, this is, this is just perfection. So, and Nia says JMS didn't, uh, didn't, didn't, uh, write this episode, which is fair, but JMS would have given this episode the treatment, right? I think so. Yeah. Maybe something. Yeah. Probably. All right. Well, whatever. JMS did everything here. He did no help whatsoever. It just means this is Larry Dottilio. Okay. JMS and Larry Dottilio were effectively of one mind since their days on He-Man. That's why there was total brilliance out of all the Dottilio episodes in the first season. All of them. He was just a little further down the line than JMS. I mean, that age-wise, not necessarily. Yeah. I like the way you can see the challenge in Sinclair's face. Like, oh my God. Does Saturn have rings? Mr. Abbott, can you tell me what these negotiations are all about? I could, but it's not good to reflect too much.

[16:57] Did he just do that on purpose? A problem? No, I'm just tired. I think I'll go back to my quotas. Because it's his job to get the imprint. And so is a nice lean pastrami with just a little mustard and an Italian pickle. I don't disagree. Yeah? Maybe another time? I would have a pastrami sandwich with that guy if he was buying it. Mr. Lanier, Natath said the woman she attacked is Deathwalker. He looks so young. He does. He also says it was the Wind Swords who sheltered her after the invasion. They are the most militant of all our warrior casts but even they wouldn't harbor such a so that's why she has a memory password and stuff could you check with your government see what they know i cannot speak directly to the council without permission but i will contact elen thank you man they had such a cool relationship i mean imagine where this was supposed to go later the non-regime i extend our sincerest apologies for the attack on you we are fully prepared to make whatever reparations you deem necessary and make your most handsome offer. For what? Your discovery, of course, the anti-agabic. Whatever Earth Alliance has promised you, we will triple. Grant me one more thing and I'll consider it. Name it. The head of the animal that attacked me within the hour. And she's still evil. Like she's still. Yeah. But she also kind of has like a, she's a little bit justified on that, right? And she knows he's not going to do it. Exactly.

[18:25] It's just funny when you think about, like, she just said that laugh after no one was in the room with her.

[18:33] Garibaldi, the voice of reason. Yeah, it's like you've got it. Horrible means. You don't even know all the means that got it there, but Garibaldi laid a lot of stuff out, but here it is. What do you do? Whatever Jador's peddling doesn't change what she is. I know, damn it. But if Dr. Franklin's right, her discovery will bring a future free of disease, aging, death, all across the galaxy. She can save more lives than she took, and she can make the deaths she caused have meaning. Isn't that worth considering?

[19:09] Oh, man, that's filthy. Better pray to that god of yours. You're right, Jeff. You know, I remember this being the question that Star Trek posed in its Voyager episode. Is is it right to use research and knowledge gained from such absolutely horrible and despicable means and on the one hand no right it's not on the other hand by not doing so then why did all those people die in the first place yeah and here is this thing you know and yeah an interesting way.

[19:37] To look at it i was kind of thinking about because garibaldi's argument was how can you you know reward her even if she's done this thing what if she was gone right out of the picture and i think even a voyager dude was still a concern here's the research here's the notes it's going to take you some time to figure it all out but here it all is that person's not being rewarded like does that change the situation here if it's not jador bringing the the thing forward this person did these horrible atrocities and it's awful and they're gone and we have this i like the way sinclair is playing it you know like he's in this in this moral he's where we are right now he has to actually make a call yeah and earth has told him what to do yeah like in a real way he's a commander he has no business being involved in something at this level and so i mean really he's just supposed to be the messenger and make sure the thing happens but i so i didn't write it down but jms talked about that in the lurker's guide about i guess people were like well he could have said no or he could have done or you know earth could have maybe they didn't know how bad this person really was and he's like yeah you're assuming that like and again this is jms poking at the star trek thing right yeah like you're assuming that like in star trek where everybody is supposed to be good and do good stuff and that's not the way it is in the real world and That's not the way it is in our world.

[21:06] People are dumb and stupid and they serve their own needs.

[21:10] And Sinclair doesn't really have the luxury of.

[21:13] Having his own opinion on this one he has to follow orders that have been given to him regardless of what he thinks of them and that's that's what we're doing here he can go through the moral exercise and talk it through and try and find a a shred of something to rest on you know so he can sleep at night knowing this happened but ultimately yeah he's yeah he could say no and not have a job anymore and be locked up and you know and there's an argument there too like is that the right thing to do if i'm jakar and i talk about the sacrifices we have to make is that was that the right sacrifice for sinclair to make to stop this thing i mean you could ask a lot coming at this from a lot of angles sucks to be heavy heavy weighs the head that wears the crown yeah one of our agents has just informed me that sinclair is going to smuggle jadur off the station What? Blast him and that infernal female! She is near. I can smell her. Free me from this cage and I'll deal with her. Not yet. There is a better way. Ambassador Jakar to speak to Ambassador Kalika on a most urgent matter.

[22:19] He's like, I'm just going to tattle. Let it all come out. I am the last of the Dilgar. My discovery will ensure that the galaxy remembers us with honor. It'll be a monument to our vision. A monument? That's what you're after? delicious irony don't you think that those who cursed us will have to thank us for the rest of time see so far so far right now i'm kind of with her and i even enjoy the little bit of irony that she's talking about then like but like i'm i'm kind of on her side here so far right i can see where she's coming from yeah there's definitely a line of thinking we don't this isn't us not having all the information at this point just knowing what's been revealed so far and she definitely seems evil but also reasonable in some you know what I mean there's a sense there's a string of logic that makes sense to her yeah and also hey listen we're gonna.

[23:18] You know we're gonna do this and I'm still gonna give this stuff to people you know we're gonna be it's redemption Jeff that's what it is it's redemption for her race, That woman is the war criminal Jadur. Orders I cannot disobey. You will have to kill us all first. That's Robin Curtis, Jeff. It is. He's like, well, I have someone back here. Very well. We'll probably be happy to kill all of you. Jadur will be held in maximum security until then. Yeah, that was another big point coming up that we talked about pretty extensively. The League's response.

[23:48] Before we get there, this is another one of those, I wish I would have known the context in which this question was being asked to JMS. But talking about this specific scene, he says, You assume the crowd meeting Sinclair could have been placated. Oh, they could not have been. No, there was like, maybe they're talking about how he easily gave into them. Like he's got these orders. He's supposed to go do his orders. And he just, he gave in like straight away. Right. Like that didn't seem like it took much, uh, said they make it clear in the dialogue. You will have to kill all of us. They could not be placated.

[24:19] And then it goes on. Maybe in the Star Trek universe, Picard could turn on the charm and just talk people out of things, but that doesn't happen here. Not at easily at any rate it was turn back or kill them those were sinclair's choices here turn back and do what he did or he'll have to mull them all down and get through like that's that was his assessment he made the right the right call and i would go so far as to say if this was picard he would have done the exact same thing but in the three hours that started to convene he'd construct the argument that then would be compelling and everyone would be like oh yeah yeah i'm so moved by what you're saying that's this is where we call this the anti-star trek because that is yeah not what happens yeah yeah jeff all the ambassadors here you know if he's been given instructions for how to vote doesn't that negate any need for debate and discussion like if he's not allowed to actually make his best decision based on evidence at hand like god those chairs look uncomfortable right it's pretty genius though it keeps the sessions from going too long right if you want to bloviate you have to stand up now the winds of fate have delivered her into our actually the wind swords we of the league have unanimously decided that jador be tried for her crimes against sentience that trial to be held crimes against sentience, not humanity now ask that the advisory council approve this decision because she has committed no crime against our republic.

[25:48] Reluctantly vote no treachery the non-regime is noted for its keen sense of justice therefore we vote yes on one condition that the trial be held on non our neutrality during the invasion assures fairness their proposal is unacceptable in that case the non-regime also votes no again masterful, Happy to do the right thing. It's up to you. Ambassador Kosh has declined to take part in these proceedings. On behalf of Earth Alliance, I vote yes. As the Minbari were not a part of this conflict, we have no right to judge her. We must therefore vote no.

[26:34] Almost makes you uniquely qualified to judge her. I highly disagree with that thought process. Yeah? Just because you weren't involved in it doesn't mean that you can't... Oh, yeah. Look at what's going on. I think that it makes them more qualified to do so. Everyone else has a dog in the fight. They can't be unbiased. Right, right. Manbari are the only ones that really could. Will you now deny us this voice? And rest assured you have not heard the last thing. This right here is the death of democracy. We demand to have a voice. we demand to be heard you you were yeah had a voice you were heard and there was another voice that was heard that was had more votes than you also it's quite a reflection on humanity.

[27:26] Well okay i mean so pause it for me so the the one thing i will say you know the the crazy thing about democracy especially republic democracy where you where you have representatives representatives right is you have to accept the results of the election even if it doesn't go your way even if that election or that result is to destroy democracy oh okay you see what i'm saying, Like, even if the people or the representatives or whatever are the ones who are, are, if they legitimately, and I say that word legitimately vote, and this is how the votes come out.

[28:10] That's like democracy can democratically destroy itself. Absolutely. And is, um, here on Babylon five and here, here. I'm not going to say, I'm, I'm just, I'm not going to get involved in that conversation here. But yeah, you and I are on the same mind, brother. I'm being very global in this statement. Sure. But Ben in the chat grabs that and takes it a step further. I want to grab because he's right. In season five, I complained about how the league or the alliance had so little say in everything and they only got one combined vote. I rail on that now. I'm not saying that them having only one vote is right. I'm not saying their voice is as strong as it should be. What I'm saying is in the construct and the paradigm they're operating in, this is their voice, just like it was with the alliance. I was saying it wasn't fair back then. I'm saying it's not fair now, but at no point would I ever advocate for walk away. Yeah. Right. And it would make, yeah, I just, I don't know. It just doesn't make. I mean, look, Jakar's vote was completely bogus. Yeah. I kind of understand the Centauri. I think the Minduari's vote while it was also bogus. That doesn't mean that their votes weren't legitimately cast to be what they were. They are the votes. Those were the votes as they were. There's intent.

[29:29] And there's outcome. And with the outcome, the intent doesn't matter so much. Unless you have a good relationship and you can actually be like, hey, we didn't hit the mark you were going for. Let's talk about this and problem solve it and do it again. Oh, you're right. Yeah, we're trying to do this. It's not the case here at all. In the name of the Drawsley Freehold, I demand immediate extradition of the war criminal, Shadour. Reject this demand and we will attack immediately. And this is before all the weapons upgrades on the station. Dude, he just threatened Ivanova. I was just throwing that out there. He just threatened Ivanova. At the moment, we do not put much faith in Babylon 5 diplomacy. I fear we will soon be severing our ties with this place. There's something you should know before making that decision. The mistake with these ships is the little, like, flashy, shiny things. They look great, except for that. Right. What's the situation? Parents went away. Well, I've managed to get the ship captain. I can't not do it. I can't not do it.

[30:25] The winner will be the first to attack. Creative. Let's hope it buys us enough time. Lieutenant Commander, the League ships are moving out of firing range. What did you do? I played a wild guard, but we're not out of this yet. Stay on alert. I'll be in closed session with the League. Yes, sir. Theme song in the background. Good job, Lieutenant Commander. Good job on Sinclair. I like how it crescendos on Ivanova. Right. A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from the bristles. I understand that your check cleared, so yeah. Right.

[31:09] He's like, whoa, I was not expecting that. Not the best editing acting thing I've seen there. Our business is completed. You were swell. Maybe we can have that Jovian sunspot sometime. Kosh, old boy, a pleasure as always. He's got a little r2d2 arm there let's do lunch soon miss winters i like the single palm leaf thing right on that data crystal just one little planet reflection surprise terror for the future terror earth is prepared to develop jador's discovery immediately i propose the league of Worlds choose a coalition of scientists to assist her. When this coalition is satisfied, the serum is ready. Shadour will be turned over to the League for trial. It's pretty reasonable.

[31:59] Because, again, they still don't know what it takes to make the serum. Those two guys aren't getting paid to speak. Can we trust your alliance will honor this agreement? Oh, give me the council. When news of this is made public, Earth Alliance will have no choice. As for the council, it's already made its decision. This agreement is between Earth and the League, just as it was 30 years ago when we helped you to defeat this woman. Well played.

[32:22] It is fair and wise. So now the argument could be made that them playing the card that they had, okay, I'm going to talk this through. I live in a state that has been classified as a blue state because we have to put everything in a very generalized label these days. But what that means for us is we definitely have a controlling party in our state legislature. The minority party, oftentimes, if they want to block legislation, has one tool in their toolbox, and that is to deny a quorum, not show up. And it's actually against the law, and it becomes a whole thing. It's a show, right? We're going to release the state police to find you, and they're hiding whatever and whatever. But it's the only tool they have in their arsenal, in their toolbox. Sometimes it works. sometimes it's just ugly and delays the inevitable but for them they can stand up and say i fought against this thing and their constituency is happy maybe that's what the league was doing here their only tool in their toolbox was to walk out threatened to we're gonna leave we're gonna leave babylon five and this whole thing because without that move sinclair never would have looked for this compromise right right maybe it actually worked out but did work out like maybe it was.

[33:43] Smarter than i thought the key ingredient in the anti-agaphic cannot be synthesized it must be taken from living beings for one to live forever another one must die it will make what we did pale by comparison the billions who live forever will be a testimony to my work and the billions who are murdered to buy that immortality will be the continuance of my work Not like us. You will become us. That's my monument, Commander. Get her the hell off my station. Dude, that... Oh.

[34:19] Music. What's this little green thong thing on his neck? You had a lot of questions about his suit. We watched it the first time. Stand by to activate the... We've got a commander, something's coming through. How do we, how do we let kids see this thing? What is it?

[34:23] Oh, hi, everybody. Didn't expect you all to be here.

[34:40] Music.

[34:48] Kablooey, wando's loving this man he's like you are not ready for immortality, and he the fact he just turns around and dips right after that is aww we find a reason to keep jador alive and the vorlan smoker for the same reason you think it'll always be like this michael little powers at the mercy of bigger powers politics before morality expediency before justice. Seems to work for everybody. Except you. Maybe that's why I like you. The Vorlons are leery of telepaths. If Kosh knows what you fear the most, he can use it against you in the future. For what? With the Vorlons, who knows? They're leery of telepaths. Yeah, it's interesting. They created the telepaths. They're probably leery in the whole, like, stay away. Don't return to the scene of the crime. Respectful distance. I can see, though, why... You watch this and we're like, this is the biggest deal in the series, the way they leave it here. Maybe so. But he's a con man compared to the Vorlong. Oh, Michael.

[36:00] Con man compared to the Vorlong. All right, Brent. We just watched Deathwalker for the second time. What stood out for you? Gosh, I love this episode. I know. It's so good. It's so good. In a season one run of episodes, War Prayer was phenomenal. Listen, Midnight and Fireland wasn't bad. It was great. Yeah. For episode one? Wow. Born to the Purple, honestly, I just had a lot of fun with, you know.

[36:33] But War Prayer, I think just for really what it meant, what it did. And this one just for – it's just a perfectly constructed story all the way around. and I feel...

[36:45] Every right now I'm feeling everything that I said I remember feeling about this episode. I'm just doubling down on every single one of them. Like, yep, that's right.

[36:54] That's right. That's exactly what I felt this, this episode. I'll tell you something I noticed about this episode that I clearly, of course, couldn't have picked up on the first time. Yeah. There are a lot, there are a lot of threads that are, are kind of jumpstarted in this particular episode most of which will never come to fruition because certain characters more than one leave the series you know but we get we get sinclair coming up with his groovy answers to everything and how he sees you know works around stuff we've got earth gov being earth gov we we dive in this might be our first real look at how the council with the league works yep in this episode we got there's it's not just world building it's we're seeing the world working i like that yeah you know what i mean and and while i don't love everything that happened i can't say that nothing it didn't feel it didn't feel unreal it all felt reasonable like yep that's probably how that would happen in real life you know even if i didn't want it to happen like that You know, that's kind of how that would go. So I can't say that I found a lot of new stuff going through it this time. I don't know that I went, oh, he said this. He said this. Oh, I take that back. There was one thing.

[38:18] When Ja'Kar said, we must all sacrifice or we must sacrifice as all Narn have sacrificed. And you, you, my friend, made the great comparison to Dust to Dust when Jaquan tells him that you must sacrifice not for Nard, but for the entire galaxy. Wow. Like, and that just, that just, I think opens up Narn culture. Like that's, that's a fascinating thing to think of as a culture. So just, it's just embedded in what they do. We never see that though. You know what I mean? Like, what do you mean? We see Jakar step up and sacrifice himself, but so many other Narn that we see are either aggressive, they're argumentative, they're, they're not. Well, we do see Natoth. Yeah, we do. But no, we see her sacrifice, particularly when we catch up to her in prison so many years later. True. Right?

[39:16] Reef, no, Reef, Reef was taken out by all those. Well, we say Talon, right? Talon. I mean, there's definitely the standouts, you know, that are there. But I think that the Narn. Those are the only real ones that we knew. I mean, am I wrong on this? We knew three Narn relatively well in this whole series. Well, yeah, there was a full on or something like that at one point. And we knew Talon. We knew Natoth. We knew Jakar. There's a war master at some point that we see or something like that. Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, but no, I'm not saying ones that we saw. I mean, I'm talking about ones we got to know. Yeah.

[39:52] Talon, Natoth, Jakar. Yeah. And we really didn't get too much in Natoth. No. Not enough. That's for sure. Not good Natoth anyway. Yeah. Jeff, how about you? What did you pick up on this watch through? You know, a really similar place. I think some of my views from the first time were, were evolved a little bit, especially around the league. But I think that the two things that I've seen that I saw in this one that really stood out to me were, um, how brilliantly the episode unfolded. And we talked about that while we were watching it, but literally up until the last four minutes of the episode, you're like, I mean, she's kind of got a point, you know, I mean, it's not that big of a deal. And then she just gives that peak villain monologue. Bone chilling. Yeah. Just like, what the fuck? And you know what was great about that monologue was it wasn't cheesy villain.

[40:46] Right. It was real like, oh, my God. Yeah. She's like, I win.

[40:53] I win. I'm going to. It doesn't matter if I die because you guys are going to continue my work. You're going to do it. You're going to be my work. Yeah. You will worship and thank me for all of this. And just her indictment of humanity of you will eat each other up like wolves chasing this thing. And I think a thing I didn't really put together before, but it just makes sense. But it's a one for one. It sounds like it's a one for one thing. For me to live forever, you have to die. Oh, my God. Like, how sick is that? And it's been brought up a handful of times. Becky and a few others have brought it up in our council chambers chat over here. But one of the messages here that we didn't pick up before was, you know, This, we asked the question, I do horrible things in the name of research or whatever. And I have this discovery. Guess what? It usually doesn't actually work or it's not as great and amazing as you think it is. It's not the miracle cure. Sinclair was like, this is cure disease. That's all these things will be great. Yes. And like there's, there's always an and or a, but when it's like evil research that leads to the thing. But the other piece I pulled out of this one, I don't, it's not important, but it's just interesting. Gosh is so conversational in this, like outside of saying a couple of weird things about scampering and lingering or longing and right.

[42:20] Swords and whatever. He's like swords, but he's like, do you understand? No, we have a contract. There's like, he's having conversations with Tali. It was, it was unnerving to hear, I think for me at least. We already talked some about the messages. Were there any other new messages or anything that stood out for you in this one that we didn't already talk about? So Jeff, I got, this is from JMS over on the Lurker's Guide. I wanted to save this part here. He says this, his own message, I guess, or the message of Larry Dottilio, I guess. Our capacity for greatness. Okay. Think about this. Our capacity for greatness is as substantial as our capacity for evil. Oh, we must constantly be reminded of that duality to pretend it isn't there or is somebody else's problem inevitably leads to tragedy. Wow.

[43:22] That's big. You know, I had a pastor of mine that always used to say these words. He would say, I know my own capacity for sin. And unfortunately this guy got caught up in stuff and it became very public yeah and you know and and yeah just you know he's like i know my own capacity i know my but this this idea like we've got to know our own capacity for some our our capacity for greatness is just as substantial as our capacity for evil i actually find some hope in that though jeff right because we've seen some huge evil. We know exactly how evil are.

[44:04] We can also be great. Exactly. We can also be great. Like we have that ability to be that great. You know, we, we talk about it and we always, you know, there's always the comparisons of Star Trek and, you know, he talks, well, you know, you should be able to talk people out and turn on the charm. And you just assume that people are there for good. And like, yeah, cause that's where we should be. Yeah. It's the goal. And that's what Star Trek always was meant was to show us how we could be the, the idea that we can get there. Right. not necessarily just showing us how we are, but like we can be there. We can be better. Give us that hope, right? Yes. We have a great capacity for evil, but you know what? There's a lot of hope. There's a lot of promise. I say it all the time and I'll say it again. I believe, and I believe this with the bottom of my heart. I'm talking about in real life, humanity is the hope of the galaxy. Yeah. If, if anything's going to happen with this galaxy out there, it's going to be because humanity is involved with it. You know? And there are some people that don't believe that. They're really low on humanity, and fine. I'm not one of those people. We have a ton of science fiction that tells us that we will be, and to your point, shows us how we can be. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[45:15] We have such a capacity for greatness. But with that, to the thing you always talk about, the great power.

[45:23] With great power comes great responsibility.

[45:26] Because the thing we talked about earlier about democracy, the idea is democracy can actually vote. Itself into extinction that's that's the great irony about democracy right like that's the craziest thing in the world man yeah so yeah that's that's what i pick up on this one how about you you catch anything else just a little bit we just i just talked about you know i think yeah this is a this is a good episode that again like we talked about the first time didn't answer anything it just held it up for us and i think it held it up for us in a really thought-provoking entertaining way yeah we talked about our capacity for greatness when you're talking about the messages though it makes me curious what the capacity for greatness of this episode is brent this week you are ranking it you're plugging it into our definitive and objectively correct ranking of the episodes of season one of babylon five our current top five top spot we got the war prayer number two last week's episode in the sky full of stars and the parliament of dreams born to the purple midnight on the firing line right is this midnight on the firing lines final week in the top five where's death walker going yeah uh jeff i don't remember where we where we slotted this one because we we discovered last week we didn't actually do our ranking until we got all the way to the end of the season correct yeah we weren't doing these along the way i'm gonna pull it up see where we had it you want to see where we had it i'm i'm really curious to know where we.

[46:55] Had it at the end of the season, because I'm going to tell you where I'm going to put this one right now.

[47:00] Listen i think there's a lot of great episodes we've had some really really good strong episodes these first nine episodes right i'm a big fan of the war prayer even though i couldn't even remember what that episode was about i just remember liking you know but that episode now i know now i got it it's a great episode and not just because of who wrote it it's just a good episode just is yeah this episode though is a step above that i think i think yeah from not just not just from the episode we got but when i'm looking at this from story structure from how it's crafted that i mean god sarah douglas and and robin curtis both just acting their asses.

[47:40] Off like like when when sarah douglas turns around and she's got that look on her face of i've won and she knows it like i'm gonna die i don't care because i this is me winning forever and you're the way she smiles and she's like you're gonna tear yourselves apart searching for him oh my goodness and robin curtis says she is gonna lead the revolt like it's so good when we talk i mean this is great jeffrey sinclair this is great michael o'hare right here it really is for as dry as we talk about him being at some points he is great in this particular in this deal you know honestly you know who was probably the weakest actor of the whole group today jerry doyle as gary baldy and he was great he was just he was good but he was also just kind of there but he wasn't bad by any stretch of the imagination right yeah you know maybe mira and she wasn't even in the episode let's go with that that's the only reason why she was bad because she wasn't there so to me jeff on on quality all the way around this is only number one so when we ranked these at the end of the season uh-huh if we had ranked this in time because this ended well if we had ranked it in time it would be our number one right now as well at the end it was our number two.

[49:05] Episode on the whole season was it really yeah good and wow it went babylon squared death walker the war prayer.

[49:15] It's our top three. That's solid. That is real solid. I don't know that we're going to be much changed off of that, Jeff, come this time. You know what that just shows, Jeff? That our rankings are 100% completely accurate, definitive, and immutable. Immutable. Immutable. They cannot be muted.

[49:37] Mutated. That's going to do it for Deathwalker. Next week, we're watching. Buckle up. We're watching Believers. Next week, do you remember what you predicted The Believers was going to be about? Man, I had such a pinpointed prediction on this one. Yeah. Yeah. I said my exact words were, man, this has to be like something religious. That's my prediction. This is religion. Religion's making a thing. And then I said, or it could be political. like you know do you really believe in what you say you believe in politically earth first or whatever but probably religious it's just religion religion makes its way on to babylon five which, i mean we've had those discussions about various religious things before so certainly a plausible topic that could be tackled in this series and well we know what happens next week and certainly there was religion in the whole thing how about you jeff what do you remember i cut just about as specific a swath as you did yeah i said and i quote cultists of some kind.

[50:47] That's you're not what i don't know would they would that would that family be considered cultist i don't think so they would be they were not if they're mainstream within their world exactly i think they were pretty dead on we're gonna find out though next week as we watch believers we're both looking at the same thing right now aren't we uh-huh.

[51:08] See what happens. Thanks for joining us, everyone. It's so great to have you here. I want to give a special shout out to our council chambers. If you go to our Patreon, it's down in the show notes below. You get to join us when we do our recordings. And we talked with you a little bit and we bring some of your stuff into the show. There are some great points made by our council chambers members this week, as there are every week. So thank you for being here. If you didn't have a chance to join us during the actual live recording of this and you're watching it or listening to it now, thank you. Please subscribe if you haven't already like comment leave a review if you go to apple podcast spotify whatever and you leave that review like it doesn't help us in like whatever way like rankings or whatever but what it does do is tell people oh this is actually a show uh worth worth, checking out so um totally totally worth it uh but the thing you can do that's actually a true game changer and makes a big difference for us is to uh share share this show someone who already loves babylon 5 someone actually for babylon 5 for the second time they need to have watched it but you can share babylon 5 for the first time with uh with someone as well and that'd be fantastic.

[52:20] So until next time hey jeff yes brett hey what's up so when when kosh and the vorlon ship showed up through the jump gate there and they they blew up her ship did you did you notice a little thing flying off to the side a little piece of that went out yeah yeah yeah you know that was actually her she she made it she did really yeah yeah and then and what so they they just that was just an effect for everybody watching but the vorlon actually actually did something with death walker what they do they imprisoned her okay in the phantom zone.

[52:58] Music. that's good that's a superman reference folks yeah and that was right off the cuff one for you too that was great.

[53:00] I mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station is about something,