Each Night I Dream of Home

[0:00] If you guys are normally watching this on YouTube or our council chambers, you might notice that I'm in a very different space than I normally am, which I've been in new spaces a lot recently, but I've never been one for one of these shows. There are a lot of work going on in my house. So I set up this sort of temporary studio. I have a different microphone. All sorts of things are different. So I say that just to say I'm not as contained. And so it's possible there could be some noises happening that we don't normally hear. When we're recording this show if that happens it's okay we're just gonna let it roll and we'll keep moving so with that jeff let's why let's talk about this episode let's get into it so what is to be gained by fighting maybe nothing maybe a lot i'd like to be the one to make that decision i want you to know that this thing just made a very large.

[0:45] Music. The name of the podcast. Babylon 5. For the first time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin. And I'm Brent Allen. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek nerds that a while ago decided to watch Babylon 5 for the very first time. And you know what? We wound up falling in love with the series so much that we decided to continue that journey with Crusade, Babylon 5 spinoff show. for the first time. And like always, we're going to be searching for those deep, hidden messages, those sci-fi messages, the messages that science fiction can portray in a way that so many other mediums are unable to. But Brent, this is not a Star Trek podcast. And so to make sure we're focused on sci-fi messages, we're going to keep our long-running game. We're going to keep it afoot. It's called The Rule of Three. This is a game that limits us to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. One of those twice. No substitutions. Extend is a refund. And Jeff, what happens if we make one of those references? They're going to hear this.

[0:51] Dent in my ship the year is 2024.

[2:01] Hey, Brent. Hey, Jeff. We have a five-star review. Oh, yes. This one's off of an app called good pods good pods good pods cool thing about good pods is you can comment directly on the episode that you're listening to you can review the episode the episode itself wow okay cool i get on there from time to time we can actually like converse in the comments and stuff you leave a rating you leave a thing it's a little comment piece it's pretty cool and on this one i'm going to read a review from eowen on our racing the night episode hey eowen Eowyn. Like Lord of the Rings, Eowyn, Sister of Eomir? That is the one. Okay, cool. Yeah, I don't know how she's got a Goodpods account, but apparently it's trans-Earthal. Well, you know, she is no mere man. It's true. Well, what she says here. Yes, this was originally supposed to be the pilot. I'm not sure that Gideon's memory at the beginning of the episode is incompatible with the actual pilot. Time-wise, I feel like this probably happened right after Warzone.

[3:05] Eowyn's a regular listener on GoodPause has given us a number of five-star reviews and made a lot of comments. I wanted to make sure to highlight one of them. Eowyn, thank you so much. Also, I just want to let you know, I actually have a really good friend. He named his daughter Eowyn, so you're not the only one out there. That's super cool. Which is really cool. But thank you for that. I totally agree with you that his memory or his dream doesn't necessarily have to be in conflict with what we saw in Warzone. Those two really can coexist just nicely. I agree. Well, Jeff, you know, along with getting to read reviews, along with our game of our game, the rule of three, there is another game that we like to play. And we usually do this one at the end of the show it's where we try to guess next week's episode based on title alone jeff we only have a handful of these left buddy i know like five we're never going to be able to play this game again right well we're going to have a handful of movies we get to play this game for oh yeah i guess okay three of them i think okay so we have like eight more of these that we'll be able to do we'll never be able to do it again not for babylon 5 unless unless our good buddy jms you know finally gets off his petition does something come on Jeff, it occurs to me we've got our time machine and we keep going back in time to, you know.

[4:16] Change the course of the show. I wonder if we don't use this one to jump into the future and really help the reboot come to fruition now. We might do that. Yeah. If it's possible, right? Rules of time travel are complex. No, no, no, really not. Depends on what show you're watching.

[4:35] Well speaking of time travel while that game happens at the end of the show you know what happens right now at this part of the show the other part of the game yeah this is where we get to look back on what we said last week that this week was going to be about and we get to see how close we were so jeff how close did you get to calling what each night i dream of home was going to be about just about as far away as you could possibly get um we both had shared a lot of the same prediction this was going to be going back to Babylon 5 that uh can be some homesickness going on I did say that Lockley was going to be there so I got that piece but then I also thought this would have a little bounce back to Day of the Dead and we'd get uh you know dreaming of home with Zoe and all that which wasn't even almost close to what happened what did you think Jeff I said that I renew my prediction each week until it happens that this is the week we see Captain Lockley, and I was correct!

[5:31] So we did that. Also, Jeff, I really, if I was smart, I thought to do it, and then I forgot, and then I ran out of time. If I was smart, I would have pulled this moment from my Brent Watches episode for this one. Yeah. Because what happened was, is I was sitting there before we saw Lockley, and I was like, man, we've got to see Lockley. We've got to see Lockley. What if it's not Lockley? It could be any of the other... What if it was Dr. Franklin? And then Lockley appears on screen. I was like, okay, cool. It's Lockley. I didn't see a name at the bottom of the screen. I didn't see any of that stuff. And like three minutes later, here's Dr. Franklin on the screen too. I was like, yeah. Maybe that's because our time machine thing does work. We went into the future and you were like, hey. But as far as the episode itself goes, what I said was is basically people are getting homesick. And so they're going to swing by Babylon five for a little shore leave or taste of home. And while that's not necessarily what this episode was about, the very end of the episode, Jeff is exactly what Gideon said that they were going to do swing by Babylon five for some shore leave. I don't know. That was so much homesickness though on his part. Oh, he was sick for something, brother. Yes. Yes, he was definitely sick for something.

[6:46] If you though are like so many people and you're like, what was he sick for? What is Dr. Franklin doing in Crusade? What, Lockley's a part of this thing? Because maybe you have never watched this before, or it has been 25 plus years since you watched it the first time. Or have seen the DVD cover where Lockley is on it. And here we are with like five more episodes. Hello, Captain Lockley. Wow. Hey, Brent, why don't you break this down? Tell us about each night. I dream of home. Well, the Excalibur is just hanging out in space, waiting for someone to show up. Who?

[7:18] They have no idea. How are they going to know when they see them? Again, they have no idea. When suddenly a warlock class ship pops in, drops a load, and pops out. In that load, a shuttle pod with two passengers, regular Joe Schmo, we'll call him David Williams, and a high-ranking Earth official, Senator Texie McTexas. He gives Gideon his new orders to proceed directly to Earth. Do not stop for anything. Do not stop for anyone. do not pass go do not collect $200 which means now would be the perfect time for I don't know a distress beacon and that distress beacon is coming from a lone star fury badly damaged one life sign barely getting an alter's course and true to his standing orders he does not stop to help nope he just has Matheson open the bay doors and literally scoops it out of space inside is a very familiar face, Where have I seen her before? Oh yeah, she's been in every opening credit scene of the show and is on the DVD cover. It's Captain Elizabeth Lockley! She's pretty banged up, but she's going to be okay. And now it's on to Earth. Shortly after arriving in Earth's orbit, a ship is launched and promptly blown up before it can reach the Excalibur. Which is convenient considering the Excalibur would have had to destroy the ship anyway to prevent a breach in the quarantine of Earth.

[8:45] However, just before it exploded, a life pod was launched. On orders from Senator Tex-Mex, the quarantine zone is set up inside the Excalibur because no one there needs to catch this plague. Well, almost no one. We'll come back to that one in a minute. Inside the quarantine area in the Med Bay, the life pod opens and a slow camera roll panning up and out steps another familiar face. Dr. Stephen Franklin, head of Earth's xenobiology department.

[9:16] Pretty soon, the nature of their mission comes to full light. The doctors down on Earth are having trouble coming up with anything as far as how to deal with this plague. What they really need is a baseline study of what the disease does once it infects a healthy body. But they can't use it on animals or anything else. It has to be done on a human. And that's where David Williams comes in. He was off world when the plague hit, but the love of his life, his fiance, was on earth. So he's volunteered his tribute to be infected with the plague just so he can get back to earth and to the woman he loves. Because after all, he'd rather live five years with her than a lifetime without.

[9:54] More to the point, who's to say how long he was going to live anyway? I mean, according to my mom, he could wake up tomorrow and a piano could fall on his head. So, you know, might as well. Gideon isn't so comfortable with this at first, and really neither is Franklin, but they've double-checked, triple-checked with Williams, and he is indeed volunteering for this. So the missions will go. They place David in his own separate containment room in Medbay, and then they release the virus, aka Dr. Franklin breathes. As they begin to track the virus, the ship gets rocked. The Drock have come to take out the Excalibur. You see, they intercepted a message that david sent to his love and now they're here to stop them from fulfilling their mission and cue the act five action sequence there's a lot of pew pew pew some rather cheesy dramatic tension lockley does some fancy flying in a new star fury and we even get franklin doing a full-on geordie la forge jump when the room gets nuked.

[10:55] But in the end, Gideon manages to get the Excalibur to jump away to safety by using an open jump point that one of the DROC ships have created. And Dr. Franklin saves David just in the nick of time from being nuked in the aforementioned room. Well, to close the episode, it's a touching scene of goodbyes. Dr. Franklin and Dr. Chambers discuss the revelation that this virus is actually a nanotech virus. Gideon and Lockley, well, they make loving eyes at each other and promise one day they'll see each other again. But oddly, Franklin and Lockley don't run into one another at all. Jeff, what did you make of this episode? Each night, I dream of home. Brent, this was an incredible, absolutely amazing sci-fi concept. I loved the idea in this. To beat the virus, you gotta know the virus, right? Okay. But it's just so cool, because it's like just that idea of we need a tribute. We need someone to sacrifice themselves, not to beat the virus, but so we can start actually studying the virus. That's one of the things I love about sci-fi, not just the messages it gives, but those kind of quandaries.

[12:09] We probably talk about it in messages, but it doesn't really pose the thing. It just says this is what's happening. But there was this whole conversation that happened on Earth of we're going to intentionally give this to somebody. Yeah. like oh my gosh i would love that episode all the mechanics and the nuance that went into that one lockley was in this and she was exactly i mean she was lockley and she was great she has this natural chemistry with uh you know she and tracy scoggins and gary cole had a great chemistry i thought to the point i was like i they talked in the med bay a little bit and started walking off and she's kind of looking at him and i was like were they married too no there's no way because Because they actually had chemistry.

[12:53] Exactly yeah like these people would be a great couple they would make sense right i loved dr franklin i don't think i've ever been so excited to see him before what was brilliant about it and i the viewing order is a thing right but this is one of the reasons our viewing order that we're following is perfect because in memory of war they did that tease where uh gideon was watching tv and they're like now we're gonna cut to head of xenobiology dr franklin and then it cut to matheson so it's like they gave us the idea and then we got the dude and it was almost like he was just so franklin right and i felt like in this episode we had elizabeth lockley we had stephen franklin we had captain gideon like we had just these people who were just incredible actors who knew their characters and were great and then we had senator foghorn leghorn, i should have come up with that one.

[13:51] You had some good ones you had some really good ones and we had that david williams guy it was uh-huh what it reminded me of was like this incredible idea and we don't necessarily have the cast and actors to pull this thing off so let's bring in some big guns right let's bring in some names some people that can carry this back when i was working in pro wrestling especially on the smaller indie circuit we would bring in big names to pop the crowd give guys a little rub i remember i was doing tv for a small local and they brought in jake the snake roberts And they had this great story idea. We would tape four weeks of TV at a time. So we'd show up at the place, tape four hours, break that up into weekly episodes. And we were going to do the DDT Challenge. If you remember Jake the Snake Roberts, his big move was the DDT that used to actually finish matches back in the day. So it was going to be this ongoing thing that was going to lead up, this little kind of tournament, whatever. But the point of it was the good guy that was supposed to get over and whatever was going to get hosed by the bad guy, which would lead to Jake the Snake coming in, letting the snake go. Everybody pops. It's great. The angle was horrible.

[15:10] Like the only people in the ring that could contain and handle the whole thing were Jake the Snake and, I don't know, maybe the guy holding the microphone and doing the Mean Gene Okerlund thing. All the wrestlers sucked in getting it across. Ross, that was really harsh for watching and you were part of it. You tried hard. It was great. But it was a cool idea for this. You tried and failed. You did, but you tried. The lesson here is never try. Yeah, just don't. It's so much easier.

[15:39] But no, it was a cool idea. It was a good story. It didn't work. And I've seen that happen in so many wrestling organizations, you know, bringing a big name and whatever. And I feel like that's this episode. It was such a great idea. They brought in these big names. They did a great job. And in the end, this just fell so flat. I just I couldn't care at all about anything. None of the stakes felt real. I didn't understand why this was important or there was any urgency to the whole thing. It just was. What did you think about it? Jeff, I couldn't disagree with you more on this episode. Oh, my God. How? No. Listen, I will give you the urgency of this episode was entirely made up.

[16:26] Except for possibly, because I've thought about this over the course of this week, except for possibly the concept that they had to pre-program that launch from Earth and jettison a life pod and then have that thing blow up. And the Excalibur had to be there to receive that life pod. And that thing had like that had to go off at a certain time. So Excalibur had to be there. That's the only thing I could possibly give it to make the urgency of why they couldn't stop for anyone, anything, no matter what, and had to get home. It's the only, the only thing I can think of. But outside of that, the urgency was entirely made up. But Jeff, how many times have you and I watched a Babylon five episode and gone? The urgency here is entirely made up.

[17:06] There's no actual urgency other than what the character put on themselves to be. It's not uncommon across all kinds of shows. You're right. You're right. So I didn't mind that at all. Jeff, I will tell you this to me is probably the most Babylon five type episode we have seen yet in crusade. Really? This felt like this could have been in Babylon five at any point, not just because Lockley and Franklin were in it, but it had that same feel to me that Babylon five has. Yeah. There's this weird thing they have to do. Franklin is doing something that's very weird and out there and potentially morally gray. There's political interference. There's a feeling that you have this bigger picture going on, but you have the nitty gritty of what's happening right in front of you. There's a captain who has to square off against his own morals and his own compass versus his standing orders. I thought this was a very, very good episode. My understanding is this is the final episode that aired before it went off the air, and And this is listed typically as the final episode in most watch orders. And if this is the episode you're leaving the show on, this is a good episode, in my opinion, to leave the show on. I think it's truly fantastic.

[18:15] This one made me, while I was watching it, this made me say more than once, I'm so sad we're never going to see the end of this story. Yeah, because this episode, this episode is one that would propel me through multiple bad first season episodes to get to the good stuff that really starts turning in late season to season three and beyond. I felt there were so many things that were in here that would be set up that would come back to that would come back to fruition much later in the series had it been given a chance. So I personally really, really liked this episode all the way through. That being said, I will tell you, I did manage to watch this episode differently than I have really, I think, any Babylon 5 episode or any Crusade episode to this point, which is I didn't take notes while I was watching it. I was able to just watch the episode and be in it because of the situation and my recording situation right now. I couldn't take notes and do the recording at the same time. I just I had to make those two separate. So did that factor into it at all? Maybe, maybe not. I have no idea. But yeah, I truly, truly enjoyed this episode. And there's a lot, there's a lot, Jeff, to chew on, I think, that this episode gives us. I actually completely agree with you. And I think you agree with me more. Of course you do, because I'm right. No, I think you agree with me. Like Ivanova.

[19:33] Oh, I do, do I? You do. Pray tell, my friend. Because it's a great idea, and it's a great concept, and the ideas are solid. The execution just was not good.

[19:44] In fact, this is a thing. It made me think when you're talking about Call to Arms, and I made the comment when Doreena was introduced to the Thieves Guild.

[19:51] And I was like, if I was reading this in a novel, this would be such a compelling scene. This would be incredible but here it's like a community theater group trying to do some you know just high level shakespearean what that's this episode yeah it's very babylon five very babylon five done by the third string actors and it just it just it just fell so flat it could have been great but that is babylon five how often did we see the third string actors come into babble on five well as the guest stars absolutely but i think even like the the mainstays like dr chambers in this i i feel like she completely completely ruined what was i think was supposed to be one of the like tentpole moments in this when like hey the thing didn't work and dr franklin's like i was gonna push the button for you and now you have to do it and she's like okay like it was supposed to be this big moral quandary and it's just like i got it well she's let me carry this for you you cannot carry it yourself but i can carry you or whatever yeah exactly frankly he's he's doing everything and she's like okay i got it i will i will agree and i've made fun of it in my recap that whole scene with the the med bay going wrong and franklin couldn't do the thing and she had to do the thing and he had to and dude got knocked out and franklin had to go in and do the manual open thing and he just pulled him to safety just in time and had to do the Jordy jump.

[21:21] You know what I mean when I say that? And it got down to three seconds. I'm so glad it didn't get down to one because that would have just made it even cheesier. But that whole sequence was dumb. It was stupid. It was cheesy. And Jeff, I ate it all up. I ate it all up. In fact, I feel so bad for Richard Biggs. His back must have hurt so much after filming this because he carried that entire storyline on his back single-handedly. Like he tried so. he's down there doing the manual override he's diving through he's intense he's and everybody else is like hey hi i'm in a show i'm on tv look at me oh all right jeff i want to do a sidebar real quick because you bring something up and i just want to have this shouldn't take very long okay you and i generally agree the main cast of babylon five top to bottom terrific incredible, Peter Juric, Andreas Katsoulas, top of their game.

[22:18] Bruce Boxleitner, phenomenal. Even Michael O'Hare, given everything he was going through, I just don't know that we really got enough with him. Lockley justified her entire existence by the end of the episode to the point that when we see her in this one, she feels like an old friend and like a senior member of the crew. Totally. You know what I mean? Like she just has that feeling. But then you also, you know, we have we have Mira and we had even even like Pat Tallman and who am I forgetting? Claudia. Claudia. Yeah, thank you. Claudia and Jerry.

[22:55] Like they were all phenomenal in their roles, you know, and some to varying degrees. OK, let's think about the cast of Crusade. How does the cast of Crusade compare in their roles compared to the Babylon five characters? I think Gary Cole is a phenomenal captain. Gary Cole is amazing. He's got Gideon completely nailed. Right. I think Peter Woodward, who plays Galen, he's nailing that role. Matheson, Daniel Day Kim, love this role. It's a very different character than we've seen on any other Babylon 5. You know what Matheson is? He's Corwin if Corwin gets promoted and actually has more lines. Absolutely, yep. You know what I mean? With the little Bluetooth thing and whatnot. And I think from the standpoint of like Daniel Day Kim and his career, this is clearly early Daniel Day Kim. But all those seeds for the incredibleness that shows up later are so apparent. I continue to think this might be my favorite Daniel Day Kim role, to be honest with you. Like he's had some good stuff. Don't get me wrong. He's had some good stuff. I really like him in this role. But who else we got? There's the lady who plays Doreena.

[23:58] She's fine. She's not bad. She's not bad. We just haven't seen much of her to be able to judge that. Who else were we missing out of the main cast Dr. Chambers is, Sorry, she's just she has not grabbed me at all. Like, remember when we hated Dr. Franklin? I do. We still how often do we say this is not taking anything away from the performance of Richard Biggs because he's phenomenal. Exactly. He's doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Dr. Chambers is not getting that. No. Eilerson. I'm not feeling Eilerson at all. No. So, yeah, but I still like the show. I still like the show. OK, come back to this. Come back to this episode. Well, I think with that, to kind of move into some of the stuff of the story itself, instead of us comparing our notes as to who's right and who's wrong with the old cast and the legacy cast, when they said Warlock class Star Destroyer, did you think it was going to be? Did you think we're going to see Ivanova? No, no, I didn't. I did not. It did not even occur to me. You said Warlock class Star Destroyer. I was like, oh, that's a new ship. OK, cool. We said Star Destroyer. I think we both said it. just it's a destroyer yeah wrong wrong franchise whatever wow no i it actually it would took somebody commenting on patreon under my under my uh deal or maybe it was on discord i don't remember but they're like yeah that's the warship that ivanova left to go command and i was like.

[25:19] Okay sure yeah i was so hoping i was just like oh my god why else bring a warlock class destroyer on here there's no other reason and i agree there was no other reason because they already had the the mock-up in the computer to be able to fly it in they're like hey we need one of the legacy ships well i got this one is that okay yeah put that in i gotta tell you um let's talk about the senator for a moment yeah as soon as he opened his mouth i knew everything about him that i needed to know and i was right the whole way from him being overbearing and over demanding and thinking that his stuff was the most important stuff and nothing else really mattered all the way to the point where the very first chance he gets at the end of the episode to save his own neck he scams he's out of there.

[26:04] Everything about this guy we needed to know i knew from the moment he opened his mouth my favorite moment was the uh yeah it's a great program i'm glad i voted for it gideon's like the hell you did no you didn't right we actually have that on record uh-huh so and and i will say yes i have fully acknowledged i'm being prejudiced about this but i was also right in this particular case they played to a trope to tell us what a thing was and it followed exactly all the way through yeah he uh but we did we did get a piece of information from him that if this were to continue as a story would be really important and that's that 12 senators were off-world when the drock plague happened this this guy would vie to be like the off-world earth president uh-huh like he he's gonna turn into like the senator kinsey of the show absolutely or that he's like the proto-clark almost because i could see him totally grabbing yeah when when he went and you know what kudos to the actor whatever his name was or kudos to jms who wrote it into the script when he called him the drack yeah not the drock the drack i was like oh dude and here's the thing i know a lot of people that that's how they'd say it and they most of them would do it on purpose so he brought david williams with him yeah david williams by the way name of my brother-in-law i worked with a david williams for a long time it was very um distracting the whole time yeah he's a plumber which i thought was really interesting.

[27:29] Given the number two story from last week uh maybe he could have helped something.

[27:35] Exactly. They're like, oh, you're a plumber? Let's put you to work really quick before we let you send a communication out to ruin everything for us. As they're coming on board, though, there's this really great interaction between Gideon and Matheson, where Gideon's like, do we know anything about him? And Matheson's like, what, you want me to go dig around? Because that'd be horrible and totally unethical if I went and dug around. And Gideon's like, well, I mean, if you did, he's like, well, actually, I already did for you. It was just a great, their relationship's awesome. Oh, it was, it was, it was written perfectly. It was acted perfectly. The timing was perfect on it. It was shot perfect. Like the way it was kind of over the shoulder for Matheson and even Gideon, like, cause they were kind of talking to each other. Oh, it was so good. They had a couple of moments in this one, like when there was, when they were staring at earth, what, and, and Gideon was talking about, you know, I don't really remember my father's face, you know, Matheson, you know, earth is forever. That was Matheson. Wasn't it? Matheson said earth is forever. He's like, Matheson had the wisdom. Gideon was like, I can't remember my father's face. I don't know which one. And Matheson was like, yeah, because which father are you going to look at? Is it going to be this one from this time, this time? Oh, yeah, yeah, there you go. That's right. That's right. And then he's all, Gideon's like, you're too young to have such old wisdom. But I noticed the pattern in Gideon, just the great leadership that he brings. He uses a lot of very personal stories, and specifically with Matheson. Like, Matheson was the one he talked about, the wind. And then Matheson, he's talking about the thing with his dad. Like, it's this really great mentor relationship that they have that also they can...

[29:05] Key off each other as equals, but also Gideon doesn't hesitate to remind him that he's above him in the hierarchy. It's a lot of fun. What did you think of Gideon's story back to Senator Texi McTexerson when he said, all right, we're going to go rescue the Starfury out here. And they do the whole thing. And he turns around and goes, just for the record, Senator, I once was that person and somebody came for me. I will never, ever leave one of our folks out there ever get off my back dude like i i loved that he but i loved that he waited until after the situation was done before he said it to the senator like he just blew the whole senator up and the senator you're joint chiefs and this is not this is like i'm doing it anyway and who's anything about stopping like it's just great it's it's a great way to solve the whole thing it was so good what did you think though i wanted to ask matheson turns around and he's like uh captain You understand what this means, right? And Gideon just looks at him and goes, well, I guess you better fly straight. You better fly carefully. Go. He doesn't try to take it over. He doesn't try to do it himself. He lets Matheson do the thing and just says go. And yeah, it's hard. Like he acknowledged, yeah, it's going to be hard, but you better go get it.

[30:19] Otherwise, that person's done. What did you think of that, Mr. Leadership Guru? That was amazing. That was great. Yeah. I know you can do it. I see you can do it. I'm going to tell you you can do it. That whole the whole sequence was great from the minute he's like but you can't stop you can't stop.

[30:36] The technology that they you know they had to kind of slow things down and bring it through i thought that was really brilliant you know like bringing you through different phasing of force fields or whatever matheson being able to do it and then like you said that whole point at the end when he put the cap on and he's like i will never not.

[30:51] Help one of our own that mirrored though for me back a couple episodes ago when darina and gideon were on the planet looking for for braytac and she stopped and went and freed the slaves and gideon was all over her for that but then later on she's like i was answering the prayer that i made way back that no one ever answered and it's in a way gideon's doing the same thing except someone did answer his prayer and now he's keeping that going but so that was an interesting mirror of the two and once she explained that to him he understood right so it was one of those like okay i got you i got you do you think do you think there was anything in gideon that didn't put that together at first because those people were not necessarily human i didn't think that at all no okay the way i saw it was he was just upset because he she he felt that she had jeopardized the mission and then later on when they went to share culture essentially uh she was like no i was a slave my family sold me and i prayed for relief she told her whole story and then he was like oh okay there wasn't like an outpouring of oh that's great you did it but with this added context here of this i can almost imagine in that moment just the the emotional connection that happened for him in that moment see because i get the feeling and this is completely me projecting on to gideon i get the feeling gideon has not had a whole lot of interactions with non-humans out there.

[32:19] So by him being out there, interacting with Doreen, interacting with some of these other folks, he's totally open to it. I'm not saying he's a bigot. I'm not saying he's any of those things. I'm just saying, I feel like he's just not had those sorts of interactions. So there are things that he thinks of as a human when he's like, that's a distress beacon. That's a human. I'm going to go. That's one of our own people. That's an earth force person. I'm going to get that person. He doesn't think, he doesn't immediately think of that same situation when it comes to aliens, necessarily. And there's a bit of the show of him being.

[32:53] Because he's open to it and he's not just shutting it down, he's able to learn and expand, you know, take the awesome guy that he is and be like, oh, yeah, it turns out it works for all these people, too. So I don't know. I kind of I just kind of get that vibe from Gideon that a lot of what he is doing is that his horizons are being expanded through the course of the show. Yeah, I think he's had a ton of exposure to non-human races. You think so? But I don't think he's had a lot of relationships. Okay. He's known for having more first contacts than anyone else. Fair. So he's out there. He's meeting them. He's doing stuff. But it's meet, shake hands, move on. Meet, shake hands, move on. In fact, it makes me think of, and I'm wildly ignorant to the work, but it makes me think of missionary work that happens. Not missionary work where they go in bed and live with them forever, but the whole like, hey, over summer break, I went on a mission and we built a house. They go and experience another culture kind of you know experience it hopefully help out a little bit and head home they're not really developing relationships and like we see that and how, you know people then embrace other cultures and things like that as opposed to the people who.

[34:05] Form relationships with there and i don't think getting how you're right you don't think he's had a lot of relationship with uh with not and why would he he's been on an earth force you know his whole life. And you know, the, the interesting thing is to your point, while I a hundred percent agree with you, like people that go do that, um, I do have some experience with that both personally and secondhand. And I know typically when people come back, they tend to always have a personal connection to the culture that they did that for like a personal affinity, but not necessarily an identification with it or an understanding of it. And there may even be that one person they really connected with over the two weeks or the three weeks or whatever that they were there and they really love that person. Maybe they exchange some emails every once in a while, but that's, that's about the limit, but there is still that, that love and that affinity for that, but it's not the actual relationship where we're affecting each other's lives on the day-to-day basis. Usually. Yeah. It's enough. Like when Gideon's case, it keeps him open to the whole thing. I'm not necessarily comfortable. This isn't, I'm not fluent in this kind of interaction, but Hey, I'll give it a go. There you go. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good theory. I had a question, more of a curiosity. I want to know what emblem Lockley has on the top of her Star Fury. Yeah, I know. I couldn't quite make it out. Because Ivanova has a Phoenix, right? A Griffin. A Griffin. That's what it is. Ivanova has a Griffin. Bester had a Black Omega on his.

[35:30] Sheridan probably had, I don't know, a lion or something. I don't know. I can't remember all of them. It'll be in the comments somewhere at some point. I know. But what is Lockley's? So I'd be real curious. And why? Had it a little bit on her helmet, you know, had it on the top, but I couldn't quite make out what it was. I have a theory though, that we're not going to see Lockley again. Like this was our one shot.

[35:52] They were going to put her in the other nine episodes that never got made. We'll never get the answer to that question. You're probably not wrong. I know. It's awful. I want so badly though. I want it. You made the point that if this was the last episode that someone watched, I agree.

[36:09] That it would be satisfying hey we know something about the virus gideon just found love even if it's just for a few minutes and they're gonna go off and do stuff a nice little bow that was tied on everything and the fact they brought dr franklin on in the way that they did i think it's really important the way he came on they devised that whole thing of making the life ship blow up him floating around like the whole setup of everything sterilize the outside of it they had to put him into his own little containment unit before he could come out which by the way i missed that on my first on my first watch and i was looking for it on the second watch and i realized how i missed it on the first watch like the while it was very clear that he was on the other side of glass from the people that were in the bay it wasn't that clear like if if you miss that that's where he was you just think they were just a few feet away and there were a couple things in this episode that were like that like yeah i was under the impression of my first viewing that they went to earth they got franklin and then we're doing all the experiments and then when they're like oh the drocker coming to where is everybody i'm like you're on earth like isn't there a planetary defense thing like what's why aren't you at earth i don't and then watch it this second time why isn't there a planetary defense thing jeff well because they weren't well because that blew itself up but also because they weren't at earth because they needed to go somewhere else to do the stuff for reasons.

[37:31] I didn't quite understand the reasons, but, but yeah, for Franklin to come in, in that whole quarantine thing. And he had that, he had that Franklin confidence. Yeah. Border that on Babylon five after his turn, his walkabout, his walkabout, he would border on the arrogance that we saw before, but never crossed. That wasn't present here. And I felt like there's this whole story of Dr. Franklin, xenobiologist, and then xenobiologist post-drug plague. This is a guy who has been handed a lot of defeat, a lot of failure. At the end of the episode, he and Gideon are talking, and he's like.

[38:15] Gideon asked me, do we have a chance to beat this thing? Old Franklin would have been like, yeah, you got me working on this thing. We'll totally beat it. But this Franklin, like his shoulders fell down, his voice got a little dejected and he's like, I don't know. And it was just for me having Franklin from his arc into Babylon five into this, the way they handled him into this and then tying it off on that, that was the heaviest moment of the whole episode for me. So I have a question that kind of crossed my mind. How much do you think has impacted dr franklin now from his experience with the great egg people that wonderful episode yeah believers oh my gosh what like episode seven from season one or something like that but but seriously like like think about it here he is making sure that everyone is on board making sure that every like he he comes out and he tells them like no no they meaning Gideon and the crew. They need to know what's going on and they have to agree as well, or I'm not doing this, not just Gideon, not, or not just, uh, uh, David Williams, not just him, not no, they need to know. And we're going to, and, and you didn't tell them fine. I'll tell them right now because this is not going to be some underhanded back back room.

[39:40] I'm going to keep the kid alive and do something i really shouldn't be doing because i'm morally right it's no no no this is all above board and everybody's got to know and everybody's on this and i i feel like that is a huge growth from where we saw him in believers that's incredible insight like to piece that together it that's beautiful and i and i think back to us talking about believers and that last scene with sinclair and franklin sitting there where franklin's like yeah so and i was like Sinclair should have fired him on the spot. Yeah.

[40:14] But look at us now, like had he done that, which might've been the right thing in that moment, right? We can still debate that. We wouldn't have Dr. Franklin here on the Excalibur doing this work. He might be the thing that saves Earth. And ultimately, it's because Sinclair was derelict in his duty and didn't fire him for letting that kid die. Well, here's the only thing we do know. Franklin does save Earth, or somebody saves Earth, because we know what happens 20 years, well, now 15 years down the line. And Franklin's there.

[40:44] And everybody's good, so it works out well. Some of the stuff he brought to this, talking about the virus itself. So before they made the discovery that it was nanotechnology, he was kind of talking about the life cycle of it so far. And so what it's been doing on Earth is going through and mutating itself into immediately fatal diseases. Ebola, a rare strain of hepatitis B, trying to figure out the right thing to kill everybody. I just couldn't help thinking, though. I'm like, wouldn't unchecked Ebola kill everybody? Like, why does it need five years to figure this thing out? So out of all of that, I think the biggest thing that I picked up from that whole conversation is five years is just an upper estimate. The virus could hit on the right mutation or the right combination of mutations by year two. They keep saying it's five years, it's five years, which is convenient for storytelling purposes.

[41:43] But from what they say it really sounds like that virus is like it could lock in at any moment there is an urgency here to get this done because it's five years at best could be less yeah i kind of got that at one point i i think that i heard something about in five years it might not even matter there may be almost none of us left at that point anyway can't even call us humanity anymore it was it just to me again like it created stakes for down the road this is a good mid-season closer which is what this kind of would have been right but in a way this could also become the geometry of shadows for the plague storyline and crusade we're in in and of itself it's like okay like there was some neat stuff whatever and then when you look back on it you're like oh my gosh all these things they said meant so much see jeff jeff this is listen here's your problem with this episode you don't understand foreshadowing when you see it i don't yeah i don't understand foreshadowing for what i haven't seen yet you're right i do what's wrong with you i know how can i haven't seen it either but i i see more of it in this one right like all the things i'm bringing up i loved it's i'm i'm just taking that execution of it and setting it over here and looking at the story jeff i completely agree with you and it's what i said in my in kind of my opening statement of there were so many times in this episode, multiple times where I was like, I'm so sad we're not going to get to see the end of the story because what they're doing right now is what they're setting up, what they're putting into play is so good.

[43:13] And I really want to see where this goes. Yeah, it sucks that this thing got closed out. So let's talk about the virus. Can we talk about the virus itself, like what we learned while we're in this phase? And Jeff, I just want to acknowledge you have read the Legions of Fire trilogy. And if I understand you correctly within that story, spoiler alert, you learn a lot more about the origins of the plague and how it's designed and who it was actually designed for and where they came from. But in this episode, we learned that the virus is actually a nanotech virus. It targets and it directs itself and it uses a hive mind and it assimilates into things to bring what Jeff, I don't know about you, but to me, this virus is the Borg of the Babylon five universe. Absolutely. Absolutely. It knows exactly what it's going for. Or it's not necessarily like the message of this episode, right? When Gideon said, do you think we have a chance to beat this thing? The correct answer would be resistance is futile.

[44:20] I loved this idea, though. And the way they played it out again. The writing here was beautiful. It turns out it's nanotech. Hey, we found a nanotech thing that we've been able to use as a temporary vaccine against this. Yes, but this is much more sophisticated, not even in the same level. So it's like so i love that just kind of piece there but the other piece i love was this one we found needs a central core a computer controlling it this one doesn't which is what creates that hive mind thing it's it's so like at this point unless it does and we just don't know just don't know it yeah i could have dropped it somewhere on earth or something that'd be a good way to test it take someone from earth just away and just do you get better oh nope okay must be controlling itself how often have we seen that on stargate like hey you're here as long as we take you over there then you're good everything's fine just don't go look at the light just don't look at those and you'll be okay just don't go to sleep just stay awake all night you'll be fine everything will be good but it was just i don't know i love the idea of it being nanotech i love the idea of it being this hive mind i like the idea of it being so hyper intelligent and linked with a singular cause of the eradication of the human race. I mean, Oh my.

[45:35] That's horrifying. It's far more insidious than a virus that's going to take five years to do its work, to adjust and mutate and do what it needs to do in order to take people out. It is far more insidious, far more scary to have it be something that is directed, that is intelligent, that is directing itself and works as a hive mind around the world. And to know that they've deployed this in the past, right? A thousand years ago, it was deployed on that other race. and knowing what I know from Legions of Fire, I didn't know it was nanotech from that, but I know that they were able to customize it to where it's going to, because they were going to first deploy it on Minbar. So they had set up, hey, here's the thing to just wipe out Minbari. It's got to figure it out for humans. But they did that for that race a thousand years ago. And it's just, I mean, in a way, it's almost like, why did they take the time to blow planets up? And they could have just flown through and knocked everybody out this way or set the same question, right? Because the question was, you know, do we do we do things through, you know, competition and, you know, fighting or do we do things through collaboration and help drop a virus down and see see how a culture takes over? Because what's happening on Earth right now is not collaboration, right? They got the death cults going a lot of bad stuff on Earth. This would have been a good shadow versus Vorlon, you know, kind of macro microcosm as well just with the virus. I want to talk about the Drock.

[47:01] Yeah. What was the deal? like where'd they come from why why were they listening to their like my question was have they been tracking the excalibur and they're trying to like stop it on its mission why do they care that there's a ship coming up from earth and they want to go wouldn't they want that to happen it might spread the disease somewhere else i i think that the drock are monitoring earth anyway they're monitoring earth they weren't all monitoring the excalibur they're monitoring earth they're keeping an eye on what's going on over the next bunch of years and so when they get this transmission going from the Excalibur down to earth and somehow they decipher through David's words what they're trying to do and now the drac are like oh crap if they figure this if they do this and this is going to lead them to figuring it out which also I think begs the question.

[47:53] How foolproof is this virus oh yeah you know what i mean like like is there a weak spot of the virus and they're aware of it you know it's it's they're all they're not bluffing because it's actually doing its job but they also know it's beatable you know it like playing poker and you've got a straight flush but you know that royal flush is out there somewhere too exactly you've got like the six high.

[48:18] Or something and yeah are you or you've got quad twos that's a phenomenal hand you're going to bet the house on quad twos a lot of hands that can beat that though you also know that there's a lot that can beat that too that makes sense that would have been cool i think in that attack because i mean really when you think about it blowing up the excalibur what does that have to do with like cool good for you that's like because they seemed like we're gonna go get you it would have almost been cooler if they were like hey they're only targeting our systems that impact the med bay in terms of like they were like trying to shut down all the quarantine stuff. So then we're going to try and spread the plague even more. But they just felt like such a we have time to kill and the stakes aren't very high. And this is kind of boring. So let's have the Drock show up. Well, from a writing standpoint, and I think if we could talk to JMS, there's a piece of that's just part of writing. That's how you create dramatic tension. And that's how you make stuff happen to get your pew, pew, pew scene in act five that keeps the show exciting. We've seen this in every sci-fi show we've ever watched, Jeff. It just felt so tacked on. Although, as I say that, it gave Lockley a chance to really shine, which was cool. Did it, though? Yeah. Did it, though?

[49:30] You don't think so? No, I don't. I think she was rather wasted in this episode. Really? I loved seeing her there. Don't get me wrong. I loved seeing her there. But I think she was rather wasted. we have no idea what she was doing out there floating around she said something it didn't really matter raiders yeah they're taking out raiders okay she said something it didn't really matter to what we're doing here you know she's out there floating around they bring her in she's on life support or not life support but she you know she she's got to get on the mend and the next thing we know it's i'm in a uniform i've i've got experience let me go do it and then she goes out there and suddenly everybody's under her command and they're listening and she knows exactly what's going on and there's a little pew pew pew here like we just see her you guys go take care of that and everybody else on me and then they fly off and that's all we really get until gideon goes man we're gonna go do this thing and i hope lockley figures it out and then she suddenly turns around and goes hey everybody stay close to the ship let's go it's like I, that whole sequence, I was just like, cause how did Lockley know what was going on? Cause she's a battle strategist as well.

[50:39] With, with Excalibur needed to like, like flash a light out or something, get her attention to be like, Hey, draw, draw it over here. Like there needed to be something that wasn't just a, I hope she can figure it out. And I'm sorry, that particular part to me, Jeff, I, I, oh, I cringe to say this just Just in case JMS is ever listening to this, it felt like lazy writing. It felt like lazy writing because there's no way she would have looked at him and gone. What is he doing? I mean, even even if we get like she's flying around and she looks over and sees the ship going and goes, what is he? Everybody stay close to it. Like, we didn't get that. It's just here we go to her. Everybody stay close to the ship. I'm like, yeah, really? Come on now. Like, like, you know.

[51:25] What i liked about it was in the i hesitate to call it the romance story between the two because i don't know that romance is going to be very involved in their relationship and that's fine right but in their burgeoning situation ship i thought that was a great moment to put them on an even playing field right like they're both captains they've both been in earth earth force a long time and they're both incredible strategists like they can both get out there and do exactly what needs to be done neither is under the other's command right exactly yeah we're we're separate we're distinct and when we do come together we're just two equals two consenting equals coming up and doing our stuff with the pac mara suit it's like hey we've seen one of these before hey i got this video it showed me i i am so excited though and that when it ended and and he was just like that smile on gideon's face oh gosh yeah yeah he's like hey can i take you out for coffee and she's like yeah you can come on big boy hey i got a question though they take her back to babylon five at the end how good was it to see the station out the window don't you dare jeff it looked like a toy it looked like a matchbox version of babylon five like not even cg it's like they literally got a matchbox thing, hung it on fishing wire, and let it dangle in front of the screen.

[52:49] Folks, I have some bad news. Unfortunately, Jeff has disconnected from the call, and I don't know that we're ever going to be able to get him back.

[52:58] So this may be a solo show here from now on, every episode going forward. New applications for a co-host are being taken. You can email those to Brent at Babylon 5 for the first time at something.com. Oh, wait. No, there he is. Oh, hi. Hey, I got my application in. Are we going to be fine? You're back. It was amazing to see it. I hated the image of it. I hated the image.

[53:28] Okay. Like, my initial thought was like, well, that looks cheap, but it's good to see. No. Like, they should have had it at the angle that we know it at. It was just this flat, like, and the color was different. But it was way out. It had to be small because it was way out there. They weren't, like, that close to it. It's just sort of there in the window. They could have got close. They could have. It was fine. They ran out of budget. They couldn't make it. That's as big as they could make it for the budget. I got $18. What can we get for $18? They went and got the thing out of the toy. You know, the one that Sheridan wings around his head. Put that in there. They had that in the not anatomically correct Londo. I just want to say I would be a full, full on board fan of Gidly. Yes, Gidly.

[54:17] Or Lockleon. Lockleon. There you go. I'm a Lockleon. I'm a Lockleon. There you go. There's our t-shirt. I'm a Lockleon. Lockleidian. And I'll tell you what. I am not. People know as well. I am not a fan of characters hooking up in TV shows. This one makes sense because this is perfect. But they also, you know what I really appreciate was they slow rolled this. This isn't like all of a sudden Gideon and Lockley are sleeping together after meeting for 45 minutes. The game is afoot exactly exactly that you're going to slow roll it you're going to earn it and you know what that is something jms does better than almost anyone else out there the the things that happen in his show almost always earn it that's like we talked about delin and sheridan where when it was starting i was like no no but the way he played it out and took like over a season and a half almost at for it's like yes this is this is how it's done This is how you get Jeff on board with people hooking up. Apparently he's not okay with that. It is the litmus test for every good writer out there. Making them earn what they get? No, no. How do you get Jeff on board? Absolutely. That's the question. They have bracelets. H-D-Y-G-J-F-J-O-B.

[55:31] We're just adding to our merch stock that we've never put together here. I'll never see the light of day. We've got a few things. There's a couple of shirts out there. There are somewhere. It's good stuff. But yeah, I, uh, I think though, Brent, we're at the point of this conversation where you get to rip this thing apart, tear it to shreds, find out what messages are buried within it. What it's trying to tell us is that holding a mirror up to society. Does this one tell us we could be better people? Brent, what messages did you find in this episode? Well, there's two main ones that I really want to talk about. The first one, I want to go with what Dr. Chambers said. Or there Franklin's talking about, you know, it's funny. We got all this stuff going on, but yet people are still getting married and people are still having babies. And she says getting married and having babies is a way of saying that life goes on, even if it won't. Maybe that's the time you need to believe in it the most so that you remember what you're fighting for. You know, Jeff, last Christmas, I lost my father. You gave me your heart? Oh, sorry. I was making a joke and you're saying something very serious. Don't you get that song in my head. No. But last Christmas, I lost my father.

[56:44] And he is buried at the National Cemetery here in this town. And we got a message kind of back somewhere towards the middle to end of summer that the headstone had finally been placed. Well today we finally got to go out for the first time we were trying to figure out like what occasion to go and all that kind of stuff but today today as we record this my my family and i we got to go visit and and you know kind of pay respects and and just see you know um, that sort of stuff but while i was there you know my my mom had had just made the comment like can you believe it's been a year you know we were just kind of noting like some of the changes that have happened in life since then. And I remember saying that line, you know, life goes on and that's the way, that's the way it should be. That's the way he wants it. Life, life just goes on. And there, there is a thing. I love the idea that even when facing doom, you know, maybe even dare I say certain doom with little hope of survival, there are still, there's the, the things that make us human, the things that set us apart, the things that give us reason for living, those things still have to continue because what else are we fighting for if not those things?

[58:01] Talking about hope that things can be better in the future, you do that because you have hope that things are going to get better. It may not work out, but I hope it does, and I have hope that it will. So that's the first one I get is life must go on, and in doing so, what that looks like is doing the things that really still matter, doing those things that would defy doom.

[58:25] I love that. The second one was actually pointed out by our friend Robert over on Patreon, and I thought, yes, you're right. But he says this, and I'm going to quote from his comment on Patreon. And he says, the discussions you've had recently about the needs of the many come up here. They needed someone to get the virus so they could monitor it. David volunteered. He's willing to make the sacrifice. And you know, Robert's absolutely right. This is a good conversation here talking about how the needs of the many versus the needs of the one. And I said a long time ago, Jeff, many, many episodes ago, I feel like this is a theme that we're going to see come up again and again and again. And in this situation, this is an example of where the needs of the many and the needs of the one align.

[59:10] Yes. You know what I mean? They align. They come into harmony. And as much as people are like, yeah, but you can't go do that. You're sacrificing. You've got to stay. And he's like, no, no. Look, I would rather spend five years with her than the rest of my life without her. And while that may sound a little cheesy, that may sound, you know what? I got to be honest.

[59:32] If in that same situation, I think I would feel the same way. I really do. I would rather spend five years with my wife, with the love of my life, than a whole lifetime without her. If that's what it took to go be there with her, yeah, I'm in. We'll do this together. We'll either survive or we won't. But I'm not going to let this stop us from being together. You know, Jeff, we just came out of COVID a couple years ago. A while ago. Yeah, a while ago. But there's still I you know, one of the things that I heard refrained again and again and again when people were talking about whether or not we should social distance, whether or not we should send kids to school. I don't know what the conversations were like in your part of the country, but down here in the south. Uh, you know, and this is a prevailing attitude that we have down here in the South is like, look, if I catch it, I catch it. If I go in the hospital, I go in the hospital. If I die, I die. But it's not going to stop me from living my life. There's a whole lot in that. Please, people don't be emailing us or writing into us. Okay. I'm just saying that is a prevailing attitude, at least here where I am in this, in this part of the country. And in this case, I happen to agree with that particular attitude. You know, also the attitude of, look, you never know what could happen. I could die tomorrow. There's nothing to say that I'm going to live beyond this five years anyway. Right. So you're going to get it. We're going to go do this. You guys do your thing. And if it works out, it works out. Awesome. If it doesn't, I'm going to enjoy my next five years.

[1:00:57] I loved that piece for him. I loved the fact that Gideon had to go verify it. I love the fact that even though we didn't see it, you know, Franklin and Williams had to have had a conversation at some point saying, hey, are you really sure you want to do this? Yeah. Franklin wouldn't just be like, oh, you said okay. Okay. In fact, Franklin even had conditions, right? When Foghorn Leghorn was saying his stuff and he's like, this was the deal. But all of that being said, I think what that really comes down to then, and Jeff, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to wade into some weird territory here right now. Okay. So stay with me. This, this may, I don't know if this gets a trigger warning. I don't know if this could possibly trigger anybody. I'll admit my own ignorance here. So we're going to talk about death here for a little bit and the willingness to die. If that's a trigger warning for you, why don't you skip forward a couple, two, three, four minutes? I think that this situation brings up a good case for a person's choice of how to end their life. Wow. You're going there.

[1:02:01] It's there. He has... True or false, David Williams has the right to allow himself to be infected with the plague so he can go back to earth. I say true. I do, too. I do, too. As long as, as long as, and this is what they did, he gets it in a way that doesn't put anyone else in any danger.

[1:02:20] Exactly. As long as it's him, himself taking on the whole deal, and he knows exactly what's going on, he knows exactly what the risks are, he knows exactly what the consequences are going to be, and he says, yes, I want that anyway. To be able to be able to say, effectively, I want my life to end. I mean, and that's taking it like three or four steps further than what it actually was for him in that spot. But effectively, that's really what he's saying. That's the choice. The choice is.

[1:02:51] Yeah. His choice was, I can live without her or I can die with her. And he chose to die with her. And I do think that there is a real good case for if I guess if we use the technical term euthanasia, a person's choice to to end their life. You know, and I don't think that's a that's a choice that should it shouldn't be taken lightly. Oh, you know what it is? You know what this means? OK, we'll sign here on the dot alone. Let's go do it. It should never be that easy. Just like we saw it wasn't that easy in this case. Who knows what conversations we had with David Williams prior to this episode happening? It went to the joint chiefs of staff like this went to very high levels yeah exactly but also gideon had to go and double check and be like yo are you really sure you'd like you're like Not only did he just have to say, yes, I'm sure I know what I'm doing. Let's go do it. And Gideon's like, okay, well, I guess if you know. He also was like, you almost have to convince me to let this happen. Like, because it just makes sense at this case. But yeah, I think that this really speaks a lot to those cases of a person's right to choose. I'm a Catholic, right? And so the phrase we often use as Catholics is we honor all life from conception to natural death.

[1:04:06] And uh that's hard right there's there's a lot packed into that and for a long time i was young i was naive i didn't have a lot of life experience i'm like that makes total sense like absolutely you know why why would i not do that and then back 12 years ago 12 and a half years ago the time we're recording this i had a dog that i loved more than anything in the world she had cancer and i signed a purple piece of paper and 30 seconds later she was gone right like i got to talk to her i got to hug her it was beautiful it was awful it was one of the hardest things i ever did yeah the medical staff at the university i was at applauding me hugging me friends family co-workers you did the right thing you know that was hard to do and you're a hero for doing that now if i went and did that to grandpa i go to jail yeah why is it different Why can I do that for an animal, have mercy, right, and compassion, but I can't do it for someone that's literally, I mean.

[1:05:06] I know I had this with my grandfather. Others may have had as well of just, I'm just ready to die. I'm just sitting here or laying here in my grandpa's case waiting for it to stop. Yeah. And he was miserable. But then you add to the piece that if you could make that choice and potentially save 10 billion people by making the choice, that adds, you know, that's the sci-fi element to this. But no, it's a complicated question. Well, I mean, you know, and if I may dive back into that, I already mentioned my dad, you know, his case was he unexpectedly got an infection and that infection quickly spread, went throughout his body. And there came a spot where it there was no hope, like it was done. He is not going to recover from this. And so when we had to make that decision as a family, ultimately, my mother was the one who had to make that call. But, you know, we kind of made it together as a family of we're going to withdraw care and just kind of let nature take its course here.

[1:06:05] The thing was, is, well, how long? Like, we're here. This is done. Like, the decisions made. He does not, you know, he does not want this to happen any more than we do. So, in fact, probably less so than we do. So now we just have to sit and wait. And thankfully, it was I don't know that it was 48 hours. Certainly not 72 you know when when everything by the time all of that happened you know um but still like can you imagine people that have to wait much longer yeah i just years sometimes yeah sometimes you know and that's without interventional help like yeah geez anyway those are the messages i got jeff um i'm really glad that i don't have to put a, thing to it though to define it uh right but jeff you do have to put something to this and help define it. You have to rank this one. We're creating the 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Crusade. I'm interested to see if this episode number eight is going to crack our top five. Our top five currently number five is visitors from down the street. Number four is appearances and other deceits. Three war zone to the needs of earth and one, the long road. Jeff, where do you place this particular episode each night? I dream of home. I don't really want to do this.

[1:07:24] I don't want to rank this one. Of course you don't, but you're going to because it's the right decision. It's the right thing to do. And I'm a professional. I'll show up and do it. The thing is, this is why I don't want to do it, is because I did not like this episode. I did not like it. And it's not because of the writing. It's not because of the concepts, the idea. It's because of its execution, the directing and the acting and the soundtrack and some of the pacing and some of it just was not good. That said, I can also see the geometry of shadows-ness of this episode in the arc of Crusade. I can also see it as the series finale. So I have a lot of competing things going on here. So I'm going to split the difference between hating it and it being great. And Brent, I'm going to make this one our new number five. Wow. Okay. So for all of you, those people who think that we just rank things because like, well, it's not what I predicted it was or because I have a personal, no, We're professionals. I'm able to weigh the stuff and place it appropriately. So there it is. Number five. All right, Jeff, the professional.

[1:08:35] Consummate professional. Oh, Brent, that does it for each night. I dream of home. Next week, we're going to be watching The Path of Sorrows for the first time. We love to play this game where I say the name of the episode. We guess what it's going to be about based on the title alone. So, Brent, what do you think The Path of Sorrows is going to be about? So the only thing I'm coming to, Jeff, is it's an episode of Stargate that we did that's actually releasing right around the same time as this particular as we do this particular episode. So maybe that's why it's fresh in my mind. But it's an episode where the crew get like caught in like some sort of a web. They get caught in a circle, a game, so to speak, fair or otherwise. And they have to like relive some sorrowful moment of their of their life. Daniel kept reliving the death of his parents and Jack had to relive a mission that had gone wrong and lost a lot of his men and stuff like that. That's the only thing that comes to mind when I think of sorrow, you know, like, like it, if for whatever reason it's calling that up reliving past months, I have no idea. Yeah. That's it. That's, I don't know. That's all I got. I'm laughing. Cause, um, I've almost the exact same. Are you serious? Yeah.

[1:09:56] My, they're going to end up on a planet. It has a thing that will lead them, you know, to, uh, to the key or whatever. But to get there, they have to follow a path. And on that path, they're going to face their personal demons and their sorrows. There it is. Yep, that's it. And I didn't make the Stargate connection, but I made the Neverending Story connection. Oh. Like, and there's the second gate where you have to face the real you, and most people run away screaming, but Atreyu had what it took to walk through. There you go. So that's what I think it's going to be about. So once again, our Venn diagram of predictions are pretty close to a circle. It's almost like we've done this together a few times, Jeff. Once or twice.

[1:10:36] I guess a couple of times, but we're going to find out what Path of Sorrows is all about next week. Thanks, everybody, for joining us for our conversation. Don't forget to subscribe if you haven't already, wherever you're getting your podcasts, your videos, or whatever. Leave us a rating, a review, do all that kind of stuff. And if you really want to help us out, the best and most meaningful thing you can do is share this podcast, share this channel this video with someone who loves crusade loves babel on five or needs to see it for the first time just like us so until next time hey jeff yeah what's up hey question real quick um what's the plan for all that extra footage we got yeah i i can't tell you okay then when are we going to do something with it i can't tell you that either okay well what can you tell me never eat anything bigger than your head never shoot pool at a place called pops never eat at a place called mom's speaking of you want to get something to eat it depends are they serving anything bigger than my head where are you going i don't know right exactly i would totally eat at a place called mom's absolutely.