Infection

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things we didn't know about the first time around and just like before just like always it wouldn't be one of our shows here jeff if we weren't doing the thing where we're searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series all over again are we going to see the same messages we saw last time are we going to pick out stuff that's brand new that we completely missed the first time around we're going to be asking what these episodes are trying to tell us that's our job and like anybody who has a job we like to have a good time when we do it and so we play a lot of games here on Babylon 5 for the second time. One of our favorites back in the day was our prediction game. It's very popular amongst our viewers out there, and we had a good time with it, but we can't really play it anymore. So instead, instead of talking about predictions, let's talk about our first impressions. Brent, do you remember your initial impression of Infection? I do. I remember this show, and I remember going into the show expecting it to be absolutely shite and it was absolutely shite but i also remember and i don't exactly know why but i i just remember that at the minute 27 mark at that mark.

[2:00] The show turned and became a really fantastic episode. I don't know if I just got used to the cheesy costuming and the bad lighting and the, like all the stuff that was detracting. And all of a sudden, I don't, I don't know what it was, but something changed. I'm going to be looking for that this time. What was it about that 27 minute mark? What was it that changed that turned this episode on a dime? But I remember thinking that the costume and the monster looked awful and gooey. I remember thinking the plot was just seemed trite, but I also remember here's the biggest thing I really remember out of it is this organic tech thing. This was the first time we's heard the phrase organic tech. And I really felt like that was going to be this super huge thing in the series that, that there's this planet out there that has this organic stuff, this organic tech, and that, that planet has been decimated. That planet has gone extinct And somehow us getting our hands on that organic tech and figuring it out and understanding it was going to be key to whatever this greater conflict is. That's that's going to come because I think we felt like there was going to be some big, great conflict to come.

[3:06] And and, you know, we would fully explore it. We would understand what organic tech is. What is organic tech anyway? Like we don't really, really know. um turns out though uh organic tech wasn't a thing outside of it was a thing in the universe those people over there used it but they never really explored it it never really was the the the difference maker in everything it was just no it's just a thing you know uh but i really i really remember thinking that this was going to be something super duper important how about you, Jeff? I remember hating the costume. I remember hating the reporter. Yep. I remember hating Sinclair for almost the whole episode. Well, about half of the episode, because he just kept getting involved in everything. But much like you, I felt like it turned when, he basically turned into picard and i thought he was going to turn into kirk and try and like work him against himself but i had a note that i grabbed that the lighting was so bad that it actually covered the flaws enough in the akarin costume that it looked pretty cool so like two negatives worked together well that brent it's time for us to go watch the episode right here.

[4:22] Right now with everybody that's here with us if you're joining us for the first time the way this works is Brent and I are going to watch the episode for the second time right now. If you didn't catch our episode when we watched this for the first time, I strongly recommend you pause this, go watch it, come back to this one, then finish watching it. So you know what we're watching this through and you understand where we're coming from. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're about to see the reaction-y style video of this whole thing. If you want to see the entire full unedited version of our reaction video, head over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five. First, it's the number five and the word first. Also fair warning to everyone out there from this point forward, actually even prior to this point forward, but whatever, everything that has ever been in any episode of Babylon five from any season, any spinoff, any film, any on panel, any book, any, whatever, it's all fair game. It's all on the table, spoiler warning ahead so if you are watching for the first time you have not seen babylon 5 all the way through for yourself for the first time consider yourself warned and if you're listening on the audio podcasting app for you guys we're going to meet you guys on the other side of this episode where we're going to share our spoiler filled thoughts and talk about those messages that we found anew in today's episode accessing file fast.

[5:50] Vance, my man from Amsterdam. I thought I'd stop by and visit my favorite student. Favorite students. I've come to offer you an adventure, Stephen. Very possibly the biggest adventure you've ever had. He is such an arch villain.

[6:07] Oh, it's the British accent. It's everything about this guy is bad. And it starts with the British accent. It absolutely does. Favorite student. Yeah, right. Kind of adventure. You'll find out soon enough. Soon enough. He should have more of a pause. You'll find out soon enough. Savor the mystery, Stephen. We don't get nearly enough of them. That is a really weird way to come and say hi to an old student. It is. Funny thing. Bottom of this box on the inside is four inches shorter than the bottom of the box on the outside. Like there was a hidden compartment in here. That's Marshall Teague. If I didn't know any better, I might think you were trying to smuggle something in. I can see. I can see Talon in him. It's just packing material. I can see him growing into that, but it's not there yet. Here, let me show you. Jeff, you're a wrestler. That is not. That's not a hole. That's nothing. That's a cuddle. We call that the big spoon.

[7:05] Yeah, I think everything about this so far is just, it's bad, Jeff. Yeah, it's not a good start. It's so bad right now. I love this from Dylan. Hmm, I think you're smuggling. So I'm going to announce it and then turn my back. Hey, don't do anything naughty. Right. Oh my gosh. Oh, and then a reminder. This is the episode that makes people turn the show off. Uh-huh. Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, kind of like, well, you know what? It's almost like this. Hey, you made it through soul hunter. Good for you. Here's born to the purple. This is great. And then immediately, oh, you made it through infection. Here's parliament of dreams.

[7:46] Reminder in the chat that after mark harman left uh gary cole took over ncis more gideon in there there you go vance you're an archaeologist everything you touch has been dead for at least a hundred years my area of expertise is a little more current and a lot warmer i only date women that have been all but dead for over a hundred years in good time firstly i'd like to Well, not only. Nelson, meet Dr. Stephen Franklin, one of the best students I ever had. One of? In the area of alien history, anatomy, and culture. You found something. Show him. It's funny. I just had an energy spike on my screen. I'm here. That could have nothing to do with it. I feel like that girl right over dude's shoulder on the right, she's going to be some famous actress later on. Babylon 5 got in on the ground floor sort of a thing. Yeah, like...

[8:45] Like that one episode that, I don't know, Kirsten Dunst showed up in in X-Generation. But Icarus 7 is a dead world. Yes, but don't you see, that proves what I've been saying for years. That Icarus was once home to a highly advanced space-faring society. Please don't touch that. That was the very first mention of interplanetary expeditions. Good catch, Jeff. If we didn't have infection, we wouldn't have Max Eilerson. What were they made to do?

[9:18] That's why it came to you.

[9:25] The one trick that... Anti-gravity... I want to take it back and I want you to pay attention as Ducky is talking about organic tech to the music, right? And I want you to do that through the lens of organic tech is a really big deal in the world of Babylon five. Okay. The ultimate synthesis of machine technology and living tissue.

[9:55] Why in the world did we not explore this more? Right. and living mentioned living ships that have the ability to survive in the in the cold vacuum of space that provide their own power and and like what no like the one trick humanity has yet to crack does that not tell you hey pay attention because in the story we're gonna crack it uh-huh it's literally checkoffs organic weapon looking at you jms what happened what happened here i want a man drop the ball like dude that's just going too far you just you just insulted him we jms we love you we really do yeah but everyone i really like i like so okay they were the vorlon ships cool what do we do with that technology uh when kosh died he flew him out like it did that i mean they incorporated it somehow into the into the white stars but it still didn't affect us it didn't it didn't affect the viewer it was just oh yeah it's there oh it didn't it wasn't like it it.

[10:57] Impacted something you know and somebody's gonna be telling us oh it's what made the white star so badass or something like that okay cool but it never it just it just didn't it didn't land it didn't it's not worth this like orchestral build-up in this moment of like this like if you just watch this you're like oh my god organic tech is the crux of the entirety of babylon 5 that's what i thought the first time around that's what i was saying like i really thought this was gonna be like the thing no it's a mcguffin the four lawns have one okay even say the mimbari have them yeah maybe not seen enough of them up close to get any idea of how they work i do like like the curiosity in franklin he's like excited and like he's like well there are better equipped facilities back on earth i need someone i can trust so you in or out, That was quick. It really is like the find of your career. Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't blame him.

[11:53] Jeff, you ever seen the movie The Mummy? Brendan Fraser? Oh, my gosh. Ippotent. Okay, so let's just clarify. All that's happening right now is an electric pulse and a gas.

[12:08] That's all that's happened to him. He didn't get implanted. Nothing stuck to him. Nothing physical. Right. But clearly he ain't good. Look at that. He's still wearing his pajama shirt. Oh, look at his hand. Look at his hand. Oh, yeah. He's looking all green. I mean, it's like he has an infection on his hand. Yeah. You know what? This is infinitely better than the infection that Harry can have gotten. Well, there you are, Chief. Any word on the autopsy yet? Who is in a planetary expedition? You said they were fronting this expedition, but I checked. I can't find any information on it. Look, Stephen, I didn't come halfway across no space to argue with you. I really don't remember hearing about IPX until Sheridan's first wife. Oh, really? If that's too much of a bird. No, it is not. I just wish that you would stop taking shortcuts. We're both tired. I suggest we get a good night's sleep and start again tomorrow fresh. If you have any questions then, I'll be glad to answer them. Fair enough. That you were fired five times for unspecified personal problems and that this is your last chance to make good. I've got a lot of background on this one. Did you get a comment on any of that? Personal problems. I wonder what those personal problems were. I think I know. Personal problems is HR speak.

[13:15] All right, here we go. Plant the thing in your chest, dude. Anything glowing green is bad, man. That's that's like universal movie stuff dude that thing is a keeper that's an early version of a keeper that's what that is i wonder if it's based on the same tech right the same organic tech oh that the keeper is i think keeper is supposed to be an actual biological thing not just a tech, organic tech biological.

[13:42] Here we go protect protect protect i do remember this part so just a quick pause to hit our council chambers chat there's uh some a couple pieces of chatter in here uh from the babylon 5 wiki and a few other spots that uh the karen armor and stuff was leftover shadow tech so there's a shadow tech yeah i don't know what that means interesting like maybe they're the ones who wiped out the akarans and then left some of their i don't know they wouldn't have it wait i don't know well it'd be the akarans uh picked up the shadow stuff is what that would be right or or yeah there's somewhere it's not shadow tech it's actually something else someone else's tech that the shadows then got the akarans got right and then they kind of had their own but it's all it's all from the same place so they figure it's uh but i think um but but with that there's a good chance that that little bug thing and the keeper totally are connected so that's a good call on your part like leftover shadow tech man.

[14:47] Okay left i mean that had been left over from the first uh or from not the first but one of the does that make the occurrence a first one race i think so like if they were organic tech a thousand years ago when the shadows came and had the big first ones were gone long time before just a thousand years ago like the first ones were well tens of like the first ones years ago and then there's like generations and it happened to be that in the shadow war a thousand years ago the minbari were the up-and-coming important were young then you know we were not even crawling around the primordial not a thousand years ago what were we doing a thousand years ago uh according according to these guys a thousand years ago would be what is this 22 1200s so we're in the crusades like yeah we were super advanced by then yeah but we're more than just rolling around the primordial sludge like but yeah and nia said in the chat too where i was going it's like the minbari to the humans in this one it was the occurrence to the bar makes sense, And, you know, here in a minute, we're going to dive into more of their history. Organic material requires a 48-hour quarantine. There's no record of their being quarantined or examined here or at Proxima 3. I'm as much in the dark as you are. Nelson told me that he checked them. If it has to be quarantined, shouldn't it have to be quarantined? I don't care if it got quarantined back there or not. It's getting quarantined here.

[16:09] Now, until I hear otherwise, I intend to hold you personally responsible. Is that clear? Yes, yes, yes, it is. according to dr franklin just before it fired it said something about protect something might be the key to whatever it was programmed to do maybe but the question is protect who i know pick me what i know that information may be contained in the remaining artifacts if i could assist dr franklin in decoding them i mean if i am responsible for starting all this the least i can do is help finish it now he gets a conscience after all that now he gets a conscience no well poor steven got shot yeah no this is awful this is bad i'm sorry you see what i mean though about the bad lighting it covers a lot of it yeah gray 13 he just mentioned gray 13 20 more powerful than the last time oh that tells us he's getting stronger it's like a nuclear that's like franklin's stunt double right there or stand in or something yeah i'm sorry that that that score that music it's it's just it's too much for what we're saying it just is relay the data to security i want this thing pinned down to within 10 feet he should not be saying this with her in the room yeah yeah she this is good you're too young to experience that much pain.

[17:33] I love avanova you know it just makes me sad though if i'm being honest because she's not this person in season two and on and part of its growth right yeah but also like.

[17:49] Okay we are at 22 and a half minutes just four and a half minutes away from it getting good oh my god this is awful jeff this monster costume is awful i saw a helmet hey it's supposed to be armor but still like we need to make it look more alieny well i'll spray it down with some water okay there you go.

[18:06] Music.

[18:13] I gotta be honest jeff damn it's a first time watcher, if i didn't have to go through this episode i would be shutting this off right now i really would i'd be i'd be like okay i'm out i can't i can't do much past this anymore did you watch like this is my out moment right here did you watch the power rangers at all yes you would agree that it's very corny looking absolutely right yes what's the difference between power rangers in this power rangers knew that it was corny looking and was made for children yeah and was not made for adults i was gonna say lighting yeah so like power rangers knew what it was and they put an awful thing power rangers did not have this big orchestral score behind it making it feel way more important than it should be yeah and then like but like i'm very grateful for this lighting because we're not getting too much and this is the thing and it's the the specific thing that i've got a problem with with this armor is like it's clearly this helmet with his face cut out and then they just like slapped oil paint on his face to like blend it and the colors are bad and it doesn't quite hug his face so it's just you can still see his teeth and the inside of his mouth ah the pink inside of his mouth like it's halloween costume like it is it's just that level yeah yeah it's just not but but overall though even there's a product like i'm.

[19:35] This too much is too much i'm out i want to knowing it's marshall teague i want to be like well you know i mean he's presenting really no it's just it's not it's just not good and and fabio's bringing up a great point here now the music is at fault had the music been worse you'd be planning it out being bad yeah fabio is absolutely right yeah what i'm saying is that the music is here for an episode that is here and and you're asking me like the difference between this in Power Rangers. Well, in Power Rangers, the episodes here, the music was like, it was here. Like they were, they were, they were matched. It just.

[20:11] And when you have that much gap between them, it exposes the gap. Look how much better and effective this is. Yeah. Cause you know, they're trying to be serious here. You know, they're trying to be serious. It just, this is, like I say, this is a point. Don't get mad at me guys. Don't get mad at me guys. Don't get mad at I mean, our job is to catalog our feelings and emotions in the moment. Here we are. And this is... We're about three and a half minutes out from it getting better. But I know it gets better. I know it gets better. It could be anywhere. The last burst was completely off the scale. If he continues to build power at that rate, pretty soon he'll be strong enough to destroy the entire station.

[20:48] I really like them working together here. This is cool. Might be our last chance. Our last best chance. All right, listen up. That's him. His name was Tular. But people can be fooled, so to prevent them from being confused by any misleading instructions from the enemy, they hardwired the machine half of the weapons not to respond to anyone who wasn't pure Ikaran. One problem, Commander, how do you define a pure Ikaran or a pure human? There's the question. No one. I'm pretty sure I'm pure human. Doctor, I'm joining Mr. Garibaldi on the line. Pretty sure. You're from Kentucky, so I don't know. See right there? That was good. When he came through and there was no light on him. The next invasion, 11 of the machines were released, and they stopped the invaders by killing anything that didn't match their profile of the pure, perfect Akara. Because now we're going through all this history of the Akarans. We're at 27 and a half minutes. Look at that. ...in abbreviation of what they were programmed to consider normal. They killed and kept killing until the last of Carter was dead. Is there anything there we can talk to? And we'll just have to find a way around the logic of the program. I love how his first thing was, how do we talk to it? Yeah, keep him out of the light. That's great when he's in the shadow.

[22:10] When he's in the shadow, it looks good because it's shadow time. It looks good now with the smoke in front of it. It looks great. While something is blocking it, it looks great. As long as I can't see it, it looks amazing. The sound of PPGs sure have changed. The only weapon that might be big enough to kill it would rupture the hull and kill everybody anyway. And that's what we'll have to do. Blow out the hull. Where are you going? I'll try to lure it into the docking area. We get it in place, seal the area, and blow out the airlock. Armored or not. I notice they're in their combat uniform stuff, but there's no helmets. They're going straight to its personality matrix. I'm going to poke the car. This is where we're really getting the Sinclair solution stuff. That I love. I love Sinclair solution stuff. When we get to his solution stuff, we also get that streak in him of putting himself dangerous way to save everyone else. Yeah. I forget who said it in the chat, but 100% this is Swamp Thing. That's the perfect comparison. I believe that was Ben. Is dead, Tular. Ikara is dead.

[23:15] That was dumb like you know what i appreciate is he doesn't have shields it's just the the armor absorbing that yeah also this is not read like armor, no this is an alien has taken over the body and has grown exoskeleton whatever this is this is not, protect i remember this too because i'm like he's totally.

[23:46] Totally kirking too long here seal the area stand by to blow airlock and depressurize i really like the intensity o'hare is bringing to this only one way out past that thing i'm dead either way dog the hatch seal it now like i'm really buying that this is life or death stuff, you can access his memories see for yourself how does he know that he can access his memories see what he's seen see now he's not just helmet with the face paint like he's got full look into his mind a thousand years dead there's your pure world your perfect world, We hear that later on.

[24:43] Oh, Great Maker. I like it because like, even though the purity of the Ikara is a myth, He still loves Ikara. Good thing he had that armor on. Might have hurt his head. Clean. He's just a little bit sweaty. You'd expect him to have some goop on him and something. Lots of different things. Probably green. Green goop. His hair may be a little more messed up. For God's sake, Vance, why? Por que? Interplanetary expeditions. The corporation that financed the Dagonikara 7 is a front. A front for a bioweapons supplier. Really? I could just have turned over the artifacts, taken the standard commission. Did they come back to this later on? Organic weapons. Then I could take a chance, hold back on delivery, and... Pay millions. More money than you can conceive. I imagine it's not... Like, they have a front that's that. This is just them saying they're evil. All you have to do is... Don't write it in your report. Not turn me in. All right, keep your mouth shut. Just think what you could do with all that money. That dude's got a great, like, voice for video games and stuff. it's too late.

[26:08] Franklin's right he should have turned the dude in he's like that was fun this is where Garibaldi comes and gets on him for being having a death wish, Jeff yeah you're my friend oh thanks you've been my friend a lot longer than you've been my commanding officer so I think I'm entitled to say this it's funny considering those two hated each other right during the war, I wasn't on the line but I did my share I know a lot of guys who came out of the war changed. I think they're looking for something worth dying for because it's easier than finding something worth living for. Dang. Dang. Finished. That was excellent Garibaldi. Like, he's a good friend, good security officer, good, you know, shipmate veteran. Jerry Doyle shows he actually has, like, some real acting chops there, too. You seem troubled, Doctor. He'll excuse me. If you need me, I'll be over there getting drunk with the rest of the aliens. With the aliens. Forget about that line. Forget about the line. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our son will grow cold. and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao Tzu and Einstein and Moro Puto and Buddy Holly and Harris Stephanes. All of this, all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars.

[27:31] I love that. It's a great line. I'll be worth nothing. I'll be worth nothing unless we go to the stars. And that's why I'm proposing we fund this space program.

[27:42] Go colonize mars and then neptune neptune you're gonna colonize neptune good luck all right jeff we have just got done watching infection for the second time my friend wow what a journey that one took us on it really did uh we had lots of stops along the way there are lots of times to we gotta we gotta talk about this in a moment so we won't necessarily rehash our entire reaction to that But you guys either just saw it or heard it.

[28:09] Jeff, take us through it. What did you think the second time around? Some of your impressions about Infection as we watch it again. So if you just came from listening to our first-time reaction, a lot of this is going to sound familiar. This episode sucked. Like, it was horrible until it was awesome and amazing. And frankly, like, the ending, like, I even made a note. Like the end was so good. I forgot how bad the first half was. Yep. I mean, that's all there is to it. Some first time stuff in here, right? Uh, interplanetary expeditions, organic tech, um, you know, interesting episode, but yeah, the, the end, which we'll talk about when we get to messages primarily, man, it was amazing. And to your credit, sir, like it was 27 minutes and I don't know, probably I caught it at 2732 or something like that. So it was probably right about 2715 that this became an amazing episode. It did. And this, it was exactly what I remembered, except I didn't remember why, you know, but the, where we go there at the end with Sinclair doing Sinclair stuff, you know, like he's like, yeah, I'm going to go reason with it. I'm going to go make it angry. I'm going to go piss it off. I'm going to go talk to it. Like, I, I hate to say this, Jeff, and I'm going to ruffle a whole lot of feathers. JMS, if you're watching, turn it down for the next 30 seconds.

[29:34] This literally Jeff might be the most star Trek. I have seen Babylon five. And I'm thinking about the entirety of Babylon five that what happened in the last 13 minutes of this episode might be the most star Trek I've ever seen Babylon five. It's like, you can rip that right out of any star Trek series of the way that he handled that. Um, and word for word, line for line, everything, every message. Like this is, this is what I love sci-fi for. It's not just star trek like star trek doesn't own the corner on this kind of stuff you know what i mean like the and and the fact that that trek taps into this but i mean you and i've seen stargate tap into it we've seen battle star trek tap into it here's babylon 5 tapping into it um i have nothing else to talk about but messages so well i just want to make two one observation because i'm i'm about eating crow when it comes to you know things with my first time reaction.

[30:31] And if we remember the first time we watched this, Brent, like, I don't think I had a single good thing to say about Sinclair almost for the whole season. He was in, like, understanding that his doing everything and going out there is part of, you know, understanding that story a little bit more now. Yeah. I can look at this and just say, like, I loved Sinclair in this episode. I loved what Michael O'Hare brought to Sinclair. That whole time he's chasing to lar nelson down yeah i bought it i a hundred percent bought the intensity and the stakes of that it was it was incredible one of the things we're doing here in our second time view is we're checking out the lurker's guide i have a handful of observations i'm gonna i'm gonna link i'm gonna put two of them together but uh kind of makes me feel a little more justified in a lot of our feelings, Said he actually apologized here. He said he's no more critical of his work than him. And when it comes to infection, I just kind of prefer if it kind of vanished in the night. I feel that way about only two episodes out of 22. So that's not too bad, I suppose. Yeah. Any guesses what the second episode was? So from the first season. Yes. Okay. I don't think it's Soul Hunter. I'm trying to do this without looking at the titles of the episodes.

[31:51] It's hard. is it the one with benzene no that's when i thought it was going to be too okay which one there are a lot of people out there going well it's tko it is not it is the quality of mercy isn't that the one with the machine uh-huh why uh because that machine comes back much later why yeah well he probably had a fever and he doesn't even remember writing it okay so but yeah and he wrote that episode i guess all right and uh he goes on to say that infection is not indicative of the season overall it's probably one of our weakest episodes i would agree up to the 27 minute mark yeah but also everything that happened in the second half as we transition now to the messages because we cannot not talk about the messages but you you made the argument i'm gonna bring it up again that wasn't babylon 5 and that wasn't indicative of the rest of the season that was peak sci-fi and that's not mutually exclusive things i'm not saying babylon 5 isn't peak sci-fi.

[32:52] He said it's not indicative of the season overall, and I completely agree with that statement. Not the first 27 minutes, no, because it was just bad. I mean, honestly, even the second half is really not indicative of the rest of the series either. Yeah, that's true. It's very true. It does some of the things, but not in the way that it did this.

[33:12] What are some of the messages you pulled out? Well, I want to point out what our friend Maddie says over here in Council Chambers. He says, this is the first time I care about Sinclair and find him interesting. And i'm with maddie on this one hundred percent i'm with maddie on this one i do before i get into message i did have one observation that i have to bring up and ask we heard a phrase in here i'm gonna assume for the first time i don't think we've heard it yet somebody's gonna be like yeah it's said in the gathering or something like that or it's said three times so far the the monster dude as to lar screamed out to the great maker now the centauri reference the great maker londo references the great maker quite a bit is this the same religion same great maker or are we just copying this phrase over and and co-opting it for the centauri later on as we get into their religious history and stuff well i think that i think that it could be similar you know when i think about um the worshipers of andraste and the followers of the chantry and dragon age they call him the great maker because you know so which is probably because it's a bioware game it's probably also ripped off from here in babylon 5 but yeah um maybe it is cool though that the continuity is there yeah okay so messages let's let's jump into messages uh the biggest one that is clear and it actually drives the entire rest of the episode you have to find the humanity in something mm-hmm.

[34:34] You find the humanity. Hey, here's this big monster. Here's this big thing. Oh, it turns out they put a human brain into it to help. Well, what was that thing's name? Well, that name was Tular. All right. I need to go talk to Tular. Is Tular in there? Let me talk to the humanity is still there.

[34:51] Luke Skywalker. They're still good in you, father. I can sense it. It's in there. Let me appeal to that part of you, right?

[34:59] They need to find a way around that machinery to talk to that thing, to talk to that part of it. That's what we're going to come into. That's where we're going to, you want to fight with somebody. You want to get into somebody appeal to their humanity, find their humanity, go at it from that way. Also, this was just glaring to me and I've seen other, even non sci-fi franchises use this one. You can't get anyone who is absolutely pure. Yeah. Okay. Now I'm going to bring this to our real world. All right. We're going to talk about the different peoples and different races across this great plant earth. I'm talking about humans, not aliens, humans. You want somebody who was pure blooded this or pure blooded that doesn't really exist. We're all humans. We're all brothers and sisters. As we go out, there is no, all of this or all of that. It just doesn't exist. This is the type of stuff feeding into this idea that strong men, fascists and Nazis feed into people and stoke that stuff up in into people that need to kill anything that is different or alien. You get it out here because it's not like us. It's not pure like us. This is this is something that drives drama. It drives stories in so many different franchises. sci-fi or not. And it is something that we see in our life, in our world happening today.

[36:25] And if you think you know what I'm talking about, you're probably right. And if you're getting offended at it, then I'm talking at you because it does not exist. We, and here's the thing, here's the thing. All right. Franklin is going in here and he's describing this whole thing. He's basically describing our world or the direction that so many people want to take our world right now. Okay. Let me bring it back. Our country. I don't want to speak for the rest of the world out there. I'm going to speak for my country. I certainly see it happening right here. And he asked this question, looking at the monster. Is this a vision? Is this, is this telling us that this is where we could go, that we could, what, because what happened with the monster, Jeff, the monster wanted to protect everything and keep everything pure. So what did they wind up doing? Killing themselves. They killed everybody because what is a pure thing actually look like? It doesn't exist. It's not exist there. How often have we talked about that? We need each other. We have to be together. This idea of, oh, well, if you don't belong here, then I'm just going to ship you off. You're not from here. Someone ship you off. Like, no, that's, that's, I'm sorry, Jeff, get your sensor button out. That's bullshit. It's just BS, man.

[37:31] It is. This is, that's, this is not how we operate. And the fact is we need, we need the influx of diversity because you know what happens when you don't have that influx of diversity, you become inbred and you know what happens when you become inbred, you die and you kill yourself out. That's what happens. And this, this image of this organic tech destroying us all in the name of protecting is exactly what will happen. It's the, it's the same thing with the high octo in that storyline. It's the same thing that we see happening here. Yeah. It is a vision of what could happen and what could come. Yeah. Basically says racism just doesn't make any sense. Like it just logically makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah. And I think, you know, I mean, and you talked about it some, but I mean, you can just trace back, you know, everything back to our cradle of civilization and the, you know, Tigris and Euphrates and like.

[38:26] We all track back to the same, you know, whatever group of whatever. But also if you start getting a little more metaphysical about things and I'm going to slap it on the Minbari, for example, who are also very much about purity and you know, we, we get on there quite a bit, but their core, belief is that we are all manifestations of the universe and we're all just trying to figure it out. We're all stardust. We're all stardust. And if we're all stardust, aren't we all the same? And is it, and here I'll, I'll pose this purity does exist. Purity is us, the mixture of everything put together. The most pure thing we can possibly be is all of us pushed together. You know, I, I've talked about this a bit in the past, but I enjoy, uh, psychedelic experiences and going on, a gosh, almost a year and a half now at this point. So I went into a workshop and did holotropic breathing, which is incredible. You should look it up. Yeah. I got to stop and have lunch with Nia on my way back down. It was up in the way Pacific Northwest, almost Stargate country. But in my trip that I was on. Oh, you were on a trip, all right. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[39:45] Someday. Someday I'll share the whole thing. It was intense. But I saw people that I knew as just essentially beings of light, you know, but not like you think. Like I can't describe exactly what it was, but it was light. And as groups were coming together, the light got bigger and brighter. And my big epiphany out of the trip was like, oh, my God, if we all come together, we'll be the brightest thing that has ever existed. And I can't think of anything more pure than that. So I would just like to point out Fabio, who is one of our most frequent and greatest commenters, says that Catholic Jeff is great, but psychedelic Jeff is better. You put the two together. Psychedelic Jeff is the best Jeff. I agree with you on that. I have a good time. I have a good time with that. I got something else for you. Yeah. And I thought this was incredible. This is a lesson I try to teach my children. When we try to my young children coping with the ideas of death and, and what that means and the idea that we live on in our children, right? Sinclair is talking about why it's so important that we go to the stars. He says, look, we're not just, that sun's going to explode. It's not just going to kill whoever's around. It's also going to wipe out Mozart and Einstein and Buddy Holly.

[41:05] And all of these, like the whole history. And like, when you think about that, like if the human race just disappears, like, Gone. It's not just the people who are alive at that point that disappear. It's everyone that comes before because we live on our ancestors live on in us. We keep them alive. Right. You know, and I tell my children that like, like just trying to prepare them because the day is going to come. Right. Like I am always with you. You make me eternal. You keep me moving. You keep this going. And in you, I live on. You know, it's the story of the Lion King. Right. He lives in you. Yeah. Right.

[41:43] But the, but really the idea that it's not just like your parents or your grandparents or your direct descendants, but it's also your culture. And all of a sudden I'm thinking of from, from the inner light in Star Trek, you know, Hey, we've got to keep our culture alive. We can't let our call. As long as somebody remembers and somebody's talking about us, we're still here. And we haven't just been, been obliterated out. That's a beautiful, beautiful way of talking about that. Yeah, I love it. They say that's how, that's our immortality. Our immortality is through our children. But I would also say our immortality is, I've heard people say that as long as someone is speaking my name, I still exist. As long as there is the memory of me. And sometimes that memory is, you know, the children, the genetics that you have passed on. But it makes me wonder, you know, this is sci-fi. So it looks at us as a, as a whole and as a, you know, the humanity, when the sun goes cold, all of this is gone.

[42:39] To speak to both the tragedies of humanity and the danger of life itself. How many civilizations and cultures are completely lost to time, either through conquest, natural disaster.

[42:54] Their own mistakes or whatever, that we never know, never knew and never will. Yeah.

[43:01] And if we're all, to tie it back, if we're all manifestations of the same universe and coming together, then that's a loss.

[43:08] That's a thing that we have. that's that's the mimbari thing right that's the mimbari thing right because when we lose these souls it it diminishes us right again you can't kick kick all the impure folk out because we need each other we need them yeah we need everybody we need that so jeff i mean this is this is a five delta episode through and through man like i think we gave it four or five a piece uh on the first time around so yeah this this is the first episode and our second watch where i feel like we pretty much landed in the same spot we did the first time with just a little more context did you because i see i'm coming out of this episode remembering the last 13 minutes not remembering the first 27 like yeah that was all bad but my god this stuff right here is i mean it's the same way i feel about tko yeah all that over there is bad this piece right here makes the whole damn episode worth it it's a good episode i'm this is an episode that should be watched although i gotta tell you at minute 24 i'd be out on the show like not the episode the show as a whole that's a message right there jeff you never know it's stay for three more minutes because you never know when it's about to turn just stay for three more minutes it's totally that dude digging and the diamonds are just on the other side as he walks away right right well jeff uh you know part of our list with everything that we do here we are creating our 100 completely accurate definitive.

[44:36] Ranking of babylon five season one babylon five here right our current top three because this is all we got right now is three our number one episode for the season so far born to the purple number two is firing midnight on the firing line number three is soul hunter jeff my friend you get to place this one where is infection in the whole list here this is harder than you would think it shouldn't be well this is the thing but it is it's not as good as born of the purple it is better than soul hunter arguable it is arguable which is why brent it's going to be number three, just above soul hunter it's not quite a minute on the firing line soul hunter so this is i'll just say too like this is what it where i'm at right now and maybe it's recency bias because we just watched infection but soul hunter becomes good because of what comes later later specifically.

[45:32] Infection plant some seeds that most of them i mean the ipx thing is a pretty big deal that could have come later i would i would encourage you jeff okay i don't think i've oh gosh i don't think i've ever stumped for this piece before i would encourage you remember this is our second time viewing ranking which means we have we don't just take this episode for as it is we take this in context of the entire series and where it goes and what it means like we have to so that being said does this actually move infection down and move soul hunter up i still just really didn't like soul hunter but it's a good thing to consider right because i personally i agree with you i i think that that end is so strong the the piece of this is so it elevates this episode to me.

[46:18] Beyond uh beyond really what it should be elevated yeah and i think this is a better episode than soul hunter although i gotta tell you soul hunter is vastly elevated to me on the second watch too so i agree i agree i think everything everything has has come up but i also think that like most of what happens in infection in the scope of babylon five could happen anywhere else and be fine okay except for the sinclair development like we learned some for real stuff about sinclair that matters a lot and makes more sense as it goes we also um get the first hints of garibaldi and what's going to haunt him throughout the rest of the series. So Soul Hunter hit some plot things that move forward. Infection gave us characters. And what did we learn in watching Sleeping in Light? Babylon 5 has a really cool plot and cool stuff, but it's the characters. It's the characters that the story is truly about.

[47:16] Fair enough. Fair enough. So this is number four. We're locking it. I'm sorry, number three. We're going to lock this in number three. Soul Hunter moves down to number four. All right. That's 100% correct. And immutable. And that's going to be it for infection. Next week, Jeff, we're moving on to our next episode, episode five. We'll round out our top five. We'll find out. Is this going to push Soul Hunter down to the fifth spot? Is it going to elevate? Is this going to take Born to the Purple? Will it usurp it? Our episode, Jeff, Parliament of Dreams. Now, I remember some pieces of this, but Jeff, do you remember what your prediction? You were sitting in this chair at the end of our infection episode and we heard Parliament of Dreams for the very first time. What did you think Parliament of Dreams was going to be about? No, wait. What did you think Parliament of Dreams was going to be about? I thought that this was going to be an episode focused on the council, possibly with some interaction from the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. But basically, this would be our first exposure in a real way to the Vorlon.

[48:19] What did you think it was going to be about? Oh, Jeff. Oh, this is the thing? This is the thing, isn't it? This is the thing. I went back, and I was like, oh, here's what I said. Now, if you guys don't believe me, you can go back to the video. It's videoed. Go back to the video. It's on our YouTube channel. Go check it out. If you're on the audio podcast, it's in the audio feed. Go back, go back to the other infection episode. Fast forward and listen. Here's what I said, Jeff. I said, parliament of dreams was going to be a Kosh episode. And I said, we would learn what Kosh is. What is he? What is he? Now you and I both know we don't actually learn that until the end of season two. Right.

[48:58] But we, I said, we would learn what Kosh really is. and this is what i said i said kosh is going to do something that's kind of mental that's going to be talking about how psyche is governed on babylon five and that oh we would learn that kosh i.e the vorlons have something to do with the telepaths that's what i said are you serious guys had something to do with the telepaths i don't think i don't think i said that they created the telepaths maybe i intimated that but that they had something to do that this was going to be them doing something with the telepaths i think that's huge that's huge yeah and that's yeah total season like into season five payoff right right did you guys know did you guys catch that on the first watch did you guys freak out when you heard me say that or did you miss it so oh wow look at you the one who will be right like right knocking it out of the park by episode four. Come on now. Unlocked the whole thing, man. If only I could have seen Byron coming, it could have saved us a whole lot of grief.

[50:02] Everybody could have. Awesome. Well, next week we'll see. Is this going to be a Vorlon episode or what is going to happen? Thank you everybody for joining us on this viewing, the second viewing of Infection. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're watching. Leave us a rating, leave us a review, and please share this show with somebody who needs to get plugged in with Babylon 5. So until next time I am joined. Yes, what's going on? Protects. Protects. Protects.

[50:32] Music.