Signs and Portents | For the Second Time

[0:00] Welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters and then we uh we watched babylon 5 for the first time and that changed absolutely everything so now we're watching this incredible series for the second time catching all the stuff that we didn't catch the first time around but don't worry we're still doing the thing that jeff and i do which is searching for those sci-fi messages i knew you guys were sweating that one out right we're asking what this.

[1:04] Episode is trying to tell us and do we have a different understanding of it this time around also because we get a chance to look at all the other stuff we're going to see what other people said this episode was about pull that into now uh real quick warning for everybody i feel like we should have like a warning sound here all right yeah like kind of a thing just got this no we got to repurpose that i am glad to never hear that sound again but fair warning everything from this point forward in this show is 100 spoiler filled jeff and i could talk about anything from any episode in any part of the babylon 5 universe canon lore books movies tv series spinoffs comic books media con panels anything is fair game for jeff and i to talk about so if you haven't seen this incredible series for the first time uh consider this your spoiler warning today brent we're gonna be watching the uh gnome day first season of babylon 5 we're watching signs and portents for the second time um i remember what my first time experience was like on this one. I think I do at least. I remember that I felt like this one was 10 pounds of fat shoved into a five pound bag.

[2:27] Like just so much. And a phrase I remember saying, I think we repeated both, was everything prior to this was prologue. Like this is the actual beginning of Babylon 5 right here. I think this is where we really started pulling out some theories and things like that and stringing stuff together. I thought it was really fun. I thought it was a fun episode that was heavy and real and pulled us into Babylon 5. Remember what you thought about it? No. But i but i know what i think about it now as a person looking back on it okay does that make sense i remember going into this episode being very keyed on the keyed in on the fact that it was a super important episode that it was the name of the season which big episode i also remember hearing at some point i don't remember whether it was before or after but it again it affects me now as i'm looking back at the episode jms has said that there's there's only like three or four episodes you really have to watch out of season one. And this is one of them. So again, big episode, super important episode. I do remember thinking, and as you're talking about the red string yarn and everything, to me, it all came down to the eye, that stupid eye.

[3:39] And I thought it was going to be something so important going forward. We're going to see it again. It's going to be a thing. I still say we should have seen it from Londo when he actually became the emperor, different stuff like that maybe he had it he's hanging on to it something this eye i even posited that this eye was the thing in major barrett's character whatever her name was i always forget lady morella lady morella she had a prophecy talking about uh don't pluck out the eye that doesn't see or something like that that she was referring to this eye yeah you know so i i those were the threads that i was like i was keyed in on those things and and as we're about to watch this for the second time like right now i kind of feel a little ho-hum about this episode really like going into it i really do because here's what i know now that i means nothing in the grand scheme of things like nothing save your emails people okay just just look this is where i have seen the show we've seen the show we've seen the show um i know that this episode's important but what is the biggest thing about this episode.

[4:47] Is we meet morden and we hear the phrase what do you want and and you know londo going i want the narn dead and whatever like which of course that's really really important yes like that one moment it's very into the episode that is super important i just expected this episode to have more weight to it ultimately and so i think having this big setup and you're going to tell me what i actually said back then but i feel very let down by this episode because it felt like it should have been this really super huge thing and we had this one part at the very end and that's really the only part that mattered we met a character okay fine and we had this one thing happen i know it's super important but it just the weight of what it is just feels like it was overdone you like like we it people oh it's really important really really really yeah you could have put this in you could to put this, those two things in any episode to me, that's where I am right now. I'm happy to watch this episode and, and have a different viewpoint of that coming out of it. That's just where I am. So ultimately my impression right now, as of this moment is this is a fine episode, good, not great. Maybe not as important as everybody thinks it is. Although there is the whole Morton thing and Londo says that thing. And that's really important later on. That's what I think. Well, I went back, I listened to our first time discussion on this one. And I think that hindsight has really done a lot to how you perceive this, this episode. Fully admit that.

[6:12] Your exact quote at the end. This feels like it's a super important game changing episode for the show.

[6:19] Yes. And it was. It was absolutely. And it was because of this one little thing at the very end. You, uh, you enjoyed the episode tremendously. Uh, and we both, we both did actually.

[6:30] Um, but I think, I think you enjoyed it a lot more than, than, well, not a lot more, but you were just really into the story and the episode itself. You know why, Jeff? Because nothing in Babylon 5 is wasted. Nothing. Not a single thing. It all comes back. I love how quickly people rolled back on that. It's like, well, I mean, maybe not everything. Some of you were pretty, pretty adamant that it was everything. But you compared this episode, not just this episode, but Babylon 5, to Fast and Furious. The Fast and Furious series of movies. What did I say about that? Because I love that series. So there's two things that you brought up and one was, um, I guess it was the first few final, uh, fast and furious movies. Like the first three or four, we're just setting up, setting everything up. The first three are prequel to four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and 10. And now 11 coming out, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So you're like everything to this point was prologue, just like fast and furious one through three. And then, and then you even double down on just like, well, and once you're in the story, like it's going to get ridiculous, but it's fun. And it's just part of the thing. And that's going to be Babylon 5. Like, we're just going to jump into space. And we're going to, you know, all those things or whatever. There are definitely things about Babylon 5 that are just ridiculous. And it's okay. Yeah, absolutely. We introduced Morden.

[7:52] And we're like, okay, so he's probably a bad guy, maybe. And we weren't sure if he was human or not. We had a lot of confusion, actually, around what the shadows are, who controls them, um is that big blobby ship thing was that a shadow is morden a shadow does he control the shadows just a ton of questions but we ended up spinning this theory together that we said so the vorlons and the minbari have been working secretly to prepare the galaxy for whomever they are and at At one point, I even said, it's almost like they knew something was coming. This episode was originally titled Something Else, and I'm really glad they changed the name of it. What was it? The original working title of the episode or the original name of the episode was Raiding Party. Oh, that's dumb. So in a lot of the comments, they're talking about, oh, you're going to see this in Raiding Party. You're going to see this in Raiding Party until eventually it changes over to that. Speaking of working names working titles jms wasn't exactly sure what we were going to call the shadows yet okay so he was just calling them the shadow men yeah yeah shadow man yeah.

[9:08] Yeah so that was his his working name i don't when do we actually get the name shadows in this episode do we know we will discover it we do sort of because i know we talked about the shadows, okay we'll see we'll see exactly what that is i really liked this uh jms and he this this is one of those questions that i think people have asked jms several times at many different cons and he kind of gives the same answer but like 15 different ways like just a little bit different or it's something he said in one spot and he just continues to say it wherever he goes but it's always just a little bit different so part of what made this particular entry so long was it's like they had every single one of those responses oh god it's like he's just saying the same thing so but basically what he was saying was he loves writing a situation where one thing seems to be happening but the opposite thing is actually what's going on or is what's being said and as an example morden is getting tossed out of delin's quarters like he just did something really bad but the whole time he's super nice and he's smiling and this is what's coming across if you watch morden throughout the course of this episode he's actually really nice yeah and he's really helpful and he does all the good things but you're left with the impression at the end that he is a bad guy versus when you look at kosh and i'm gonna pull this up because he actually talked about it.

[10:28] Kosh from what we've seen of him so far destroys our chances for immortality uh-huh refuses to get involved in the affairs of others is plainly studying us terrorizes talia with that one episode yet we get the sense he's a good guy he's doing all this crappy stuff but we get the sense that he's a good guy i can see now why you and i or i don't know about you i know that i still look at the vorlons and i still think the vorlons are good yeah they're fundamentally good the shadows Those are fundamentally bad and evil. The Vorlons just went nutso after Kosh got killed. Yeah. Right. But up till that point, their way, their method of trying to help people get through and evolve is the correct way to do it. That's my opinion. That's where I am right now. Maybe as we go through this, I'll change.

[11:13] I hope you do, but because it's not the shadows aren't the right way either. There is no one right way. We'll talk about that. Well, cool. That's it for the lurker's guide. Yeah, that's it. That's what I got. What do you say? We watch the episode.

[11:27] Finally. Yes. Let's do this. I'm excited for this. Hey, if you're joining us for the first time, we're joined here in our recordings by our council chambers. Hi, everybody. It's one of my favorite things. We get to hang out. They get to chat with us, and sometimes we're going to pull in comments from them. Um, it's, uh, it's one of the fun things to get to share with everybody, but we're about to go do now is literally bring up the episode and watch it. So if you haven't seen this episode or watched our first time reaction to it, I highly recommend that you do things. We'll make a lot more sense to you as we dive in. If you're joining us on YouTube, then you're going to see the cut up kind of reaction video to this whole thing, all the highlights and whatnot. But if you want to see the full and unedited version join us at our patreon page that's patreon.com slash babylon five first the number five and the word first and jeff just to highlight our amazing council chambers our friend ben just said this it would have been great to see cartagia toss the eye to the court jester to juggle or something like that to your car it as a toy make your car do it yeah yeah yeah that would that would have been that would have been something else good call anyway Anyway.

[12:37] Let's say, hey, listen, if you guys are listening to us on the audio side of things, like just a podcasting app or audible or something like that, we're going to meet you on the other side of this episode. We'll be back where we're going to share some of our thoughts, our new findings, things we saw for the first time this time that we didn't see the first time around. And, of course, we'll talk about any messages that we uncover. So, Jeff, let's do the thing. Let's do it. Accessing file. I still say Claudia Christian.

[13:06] Wakes up beautiful I agree, Some really, really inappropriate thoughts on her mouth tasting like old carpet. Oh, especially knowing what we know. Especially knowing what we know. Sleeping is not the problem. Waking up. Good for her. Good for her. That is a problem. Waking up is a problem. I feel that. No judgment on here. It's just that one. It's always dark. I know. Looking up a distress signal. Put it on screen. You know what? I want to know more about that girl. I agree. She's around through all five seasons. No. No, she goes away after the first season. And she gets replaced by Corwin. Babylon 5, the fighter. What is your situation? Are you sure? 100%. Surprise attack. There's somebody there other than Corwin that we see all the time. But they don't get to speak. Tell them to home in on his signal. She goes away. They're coming in. I don't know what the place. So Corwin survived the effort. Right. He's gone.

[14:04] Big old sting at the end there. That was a raiding party. Yeah. This is a cool shot. kudos to the to the shop folks and this dude just walking solo you and i have seen this logic people walking solo through this like hangar bay with nobody else doing anything around you know he's bad how do you know he's bad because he's the guy coming onto the station the beginning of the episode i've been out of circulation spent the last few years doing some exploration out on the rim the rim anything interesting yes you could say so even after we cut off this supply of heavy weapons the raiders have continued to escalate their attacks the last two have been in close It's weird what a big deal Raiders used to be. Makes sense. But they're always still out there. It's like they're just out there, but they're just an annoyance after a while.

[14:58] Can I tell you what I'm starting to wonder? So we, we know about Michael O'Hare's situation, right? Yeah. Was this something that was affecting him in the earlier episodes and it really only kind of started manifesting at some point towards the end of the show, towards the end of the first season or the middle part of the first season? Like, when is this coming in? Because what you and I also know is that Jared Doyle had a big problem working with him. Yeah. And like, I'm, I'm watching how this scene is cut together and I'm wondering how many of these shots those two are actually in the same room for.

[15:31] Like how much did they were they just using like a stand-in or something like that just to kind of keep them separate like i don't know how much they had to keep separated or not like i you know like i'm i'm curious about the behind the scenes on that on that issue and yeah, because i gotta tell you uh michael o'hare is not acting any different now than he was before exactly yeah for which is good because he's an actor he should not be able to tell right like Yeah, that's the job. My understanding is that it was from go. There were some kind of things. But as it went, it just got a little harder for him to hold on to. And I think that his relationship with JMS got to a point where he was just more comfortable talking about it and more comfortable not hiding. I don't think he masked it as much because he felt comfortable around him. Yeah. To a point, but I don't know that for sure. But here we are on the 13th episode. Like I imagine at this point, even with it being unknown, like it's, it's, it's gotta be starting to flare up or come to more light. Like did Jerry Dill just always have an issue working with Michael here? Or was it just as this thing got worse and worse and worse? Like, like, I, like, I don't know. And I'm, I'm just kinda, I'm seeing this show through the behind the scenes now, I think a little bit. Okay. Yeah. You know, product of reading the workers guide. I think thinking about it from that standpoint, not long ago, something happened. That's, that's interesting.

[16:52] 24 hours of my life that I couldn't remember. I need your help. Try and find out what happened and why. This is strictly unofficial. You don't have to take on the job if you don't want to. That was all one or all back and forth. That's impressive. So let's hear it. It was a cool shot. I was noticing.

[17:09] You know, to your point on like, that's weird. I'm a friend and a help or whatever. I'm always impressed when you know there's like backstage heat between, but then they can still be professional. I just finished watching the series Silicon Valley, which I think went on for about two seasons too long, but it was pretty funny. But the main character and one of the women, the main women on the show, like, I don't think to the point of like harassment or anything, but he definitely made her very uncomfortable. And they like, but on the show, like they joke, they even have some flirty stuff or whatever. You would never know. And that's professionalism. Also, people should never be treated like that in the workplace. But yeah, it's impressive to see. i finally received confirmation that payment in full has been deposited into my account back on earth and i hope here's the merchandise payment in full before i get the merchandise a little weird great maker nice piece of jewelry isn't it it's not just a piece of jewelry this is the eye the oldest symbol of centauri nobility look look look at how important this thing is right he's like Maybe I should have charged you more, is what you're saying.

[18:30] Didn't pay for that. No, you wouldn't. You had to pay him a lot of Dukats. So it makes sense that the government would know that he has this because they paid for it. Uh-oh, there's dude. I really want him to be eating a salad. Instead, he's looking at a napkin. Right. It's out of the balsamic vinaigrette. The kid just has that look. Oh, here we go. Here's the scene. but the human in the elevator. The way you remember this kind of stuff, here's dude. Ambassador? I have already pushed it. I pushed it again. Ah he's just standing there finding his own business there's a famine on your world's southern frontier though i'm just gonna set your own people have continued to exploit your world's resources that's evolution for you now see here take the famine as a blessing ambassador yes now you can go to hell and you can kiss my pouch you see there it is.

[19:28] Whoa jeff once they were finished i just got something okay i just got something well i can't believe i didn't see it the first time i couldn't believe you didn't see it the first time here you have the narn and the centauri and they're arguing and they have their stuff going on and stuck in between them as a human being uh-huh dude this is just like you know later on between the shadows and the Vorlons and people are just stuck between them and they're just having their little fight with no regard to anything else really going on and they no no recognition that there's a person in between them right how did we miss that I don't know how we missed that I actually don't think we really missed it's great it's great foreshadowing yeah it actually really is it's beautiful and I and again I want to point out again fight fight fight fight but at the end They say and do the exact same thing. Not so different. I, um, well, because we also know like later on, like in the future, don't, don't the Centauri and the, the Narn just sort of go away. Sort of like the, the humans ascend. The humans do some stuff. I don't know about the memory, but I don't, the Centauri and the Narn just sort of. That's what Kosh says happens. Go out of existence. Right. So here's the thing. I'm a little bit sad that I read this in the lurker's guide. Because I kind of wonder what it would have been like to see that scene.

[20:51] Would we have picked up on it at all? The answer is probably not. I just want to be clear. Probably not. Would we? I wouldn't be surprised because we picked up on something about it. We talked about it the first time even. We didn't have the context of what comes, but it was just like, isn't that awkward? Right. But also, I will never watch that scene the same again. Oh, no. it's so because that's that's that makes that a killer scene for more than just londo and jakar being in it yeah here's the story yeah in a nutshell you want to know what babylon 5 is about here watch this scene from episode 13 and if you don't get it you can kiss my pouch, with me the minbari wipe my memory being taken aboard their crew i feel like that should be a kiss my couch totally yes what do you want what i want is for you to go away and leave me in peace go away and never come back as you say the centauri stripped my world i want justice.

[21:54] Suck the marrow from their bones and grind their skulls powder yes what do you want to tear down their cities blacken their sky sow their ground with salt you know what occurs to me i don't know jakar kind of gets what he wants as long as my home world safety is guaranteed really does huh i don't know that it matters outside of his own home world safety well thank you very much for You're a time ambassador. Good day. Yeah, the sky gets blackened when the Vorlon fly over it. They blow up the island of Selene, right? So it gets burned and salted. Yeah, their cities are burned down and ground is salted. And when the drop come, it happens across the entire planet. And eventually they go to nothing. And like Texas Animal Shock in the chat says, he gets what he wants and he's horrified by it. Rightly so. It's like that's the difference. We talked about how big this dude's hair is yep what does it say because what we battle on five to host a national conference fire death pain pain no.

[23:03] I don't know that they ever explicitly say this but the bigger your hair is the more important you are yeah we see cartagia comes in and wants to make it really small again we see it in veer right as in his story and then and i think the closest they get is cartagia being like that's an old-fashioned yeah well no they go even further than what cartagia did because we get emperor turn who was bald he went all the way yeah something wrong ambassador no just a moment of fatigue this is the first time we've seen it in her head in her yeah because we said dude who lives in her closet we saw that yeah but she sees the shadow like yeah get out okay we never they never explain exactly what's happening here do they no we can i think we can piece it together now knowing what we know okay chat room i'm going to reach out to our council chambers and you guys are going to have a few minutes to type this in and let us know do you know what is happening here what why does she have this thing in her forehead why is it glowing and why is it activated by the shadows while they're doing that if they're going to do that they may not jeff let's piece it together what you got so there's something where because they've been working on this shadow thing they know they're coming back right she and ranger one dude back And in the beginning, we're like, we believe, we believe. And I don't know where the triangle thing comes from, but I think that as soon as she has that, oh my God, I feel the shadows here.

[24:24] And what we know there are shadows with morden right they're they're they're flanking that's right that's right you know and so like so maybe somehow she feels that presence or something but well it's it's she gets her head starts tingling and her teal emblem comes out yeah exactly sure her prime she's still her first she's second prime i guess but oh yeah well she is the newest member on the council so you know yeah but yeah but it's interesting because that never happens again but even not happening again because they this is clearly one of those things like the gravity rings and all that kind of stuff that they drop but it's still here which means it happens like so is this thing in the forehead is this exclusive to gray councils to where they go to satai is it exclusive to satai is it something else altogether is it like well becky says in the chat um she recalls correctly originally going to happen with the minbari when they were in the presence of Shadows, but it changed his mind because it just didn't really work. Probably a good change. And then Trey says, you got to notice it was actually there throughout seasons two through five. We just have to open our eyes and watch more closely.

[25:33] Right, right. And they can't have gotten this for the purpose of detecting shadows. Right, because dude who lives in her closet had it when it was Sinclair. Yeah, right, right. Does it show through like an emotional time? And she was feeling something and it was tingling her and it made that like come, kind of come out. But I mean, she freaked out and was trying to hide it so that he wouldn't see it. Yeah. Well, yeah. Oh, because if it's a great count, that makes it makes sense to be a great counsel thing. He can't know I'm great counsel, but if you're covering your forehead and you know, to look for that, like it's kind of a, yeah, kind of a giveaway, right? Yeah. Our first time watch, I thought it just meant she was a 12 year old boy who got asked to go to, to the front of the class and do the math problem on the chalkboard. Nope. Nope. Can't teach. I got to sit right here. Yeah. I don't know how to do that one. I'll take the F. You know, listen, listen to, to all teachers out there. Okay. From about the fourth grade on when a girl asks to go to the restroom, let her go ask no questions. When a boy says he cannot come up to the front of the classroom, do not make him ask no questions.

[26:43] Let's leave it there. Yeah. Yeah. I know JMS drops this, but I want, I need something about this. Yeah. You know, and JMS is like, I dropped it for a reason. Stop it. But I need something. Okay. Taking on too much time. Let's go. And it goes away. Yeah. You're here. That's how it works now. So she recognizes that it's the shadows. Yeah. Yeah. This is where it's like, they've known this has been coming the whole time. Oh my gosh. You know, from what I understand, JMS never liked this prop. I think it's fine. It looks like a Christmas ornament I have. Sure, but I think it's fine. As a prop? I think it's fine. Except the man who brought it here. I think we can rely on his discretion. There is no greater symbol of authority. Malari, the eye belongs to my house. Who has the eye is the emperor is in charge. Symbolically, yeah. We must all make our sacrifices. If I were to return with the eye, I'd claim the throne for myself. Lord Kiro, please. I understand your feelings. You could do what you describe, but without support, you would be dead within a day of trial. I like how dispassionate he is about being emperor.

[27:53] Here's the thing, though. Stop. Why is Kiro talking to Londo? I just picked up on something. Why is he talking to Londo? Yeah, why? What did you get? Think about it. Okay. Prior to Londo even becoming emperor, all right, how often do we see Londo activate his network of people that are loyal to him and under his control? Right. Okay. And loyal to House Malari, right? Yeah. Quite evidently, House Malari, despite Londo being kind of on this backwoods outpost and this is a shit job. He's drumming up. He's drumming up that important support. He's trying to get the support of House. I mean, this goes Game of Thrones really is what we're talking about here. He's trying to get the support of House Malari. Yeah. Right? And Londo says without support. Okay. Let me add an extra word. without our support or maybe ours and a few others you're going to be dead within the day because londo's got some he he's got some oomph back home still yeah yeah you know i'll leave this in your care yeah here's where he's like well it's not biting possession i might do something foolish but it's interesting he says turin hasn't been out in like a year and then he does come out he's a very changed person and sees things in a very different way did it all go and he comes to babylon five to say i'm sorry did we lose it.

[29:12] I don't know. He feels like he's swinging out of his league right now. I'm not, I can't have these conversations. I don't have an opinion on that. Well, but see, no, this is where I love the complexity of a character like Londo Malari, because we've already seen him say, I forgot. No. Has he done that yet? That was the way shoes were too tight. Yeah. Right. We've seen him in bed with lady Adira, Ladira, Adira. This is Ladira. Who's here now. Melania, whatever her name is. um what's her name the main character morella thank you um but in bed in bed with lady adira.

[29:48] And he's like uh you know i wear a mask and i don't like my life is not about this kind of stuff anymore but yet we see him right here in this moment like i don't know where we lost it all i don't know where it all went wrong it's all crap it doesn't mean anything it's all awful he knows that he knows it goes to bad stuff but also where did we lose our our oomph as a people yeah i don't know i don't know it's he is a man who is torn between two places yeah and it makes him such a wonderfully and incredibly complex character who feels more real to me than any other single character on this show and most other shows yeah because this is what people are like yeah this is how it works yeah oh my gosh londo's got to be such an interesting character.

[30:45] Now see she sees it destructing and blowing up in fire and war and all this sort of stuff although we know bible on five ends in fire it's not what she sees but there is the babylon squared timeline where it is possible that was a future that could be so is this i don't i don't get right but that's what i'm saying i don't get the feeling that jms is writing a multiverse type script you know oh you can have mirror universes and all that kind of stuff i don't get the feeling he's writing that at all um so obviously any future is possible right but where where when we saw sleeping in light and we see the, the station blow up. People like, Hey, that's lady, a dearest thing coming true because it ended in fire. And yeah, yeah but it's not really what she saw it's yes it ended in fire but it's not she saw something else she saw a battle you know war and that's where i think like because i agree he's not writing a multiverse thing but i think he's writing a frank herbert like multiple threads of potential futures and realities that you know can come out of each decision the choices you make move it decide which one comes to fruition, but that's, that's reality as it is right now. Exactly.

[32:02] There's a bajillion different potential futures for each and every single one of us. The choices we make will determine which one of those we get. And that's exactly what she says to Sinclair at the end of this episode. That's one of many possible futures. Yeah. And, and Ben, you know, Ben points this out a little bit ahead of the episode, but in the end, she says it's literally a future that could be, which you just said. I remember her saying that at the end of the episode as well. Like it's not guaranteed this is just what could be what i'm saying is is when we get to sleeping light and for all the people who say this is what lady adira saw i'm saying no it's not i'm gonna wait till the end of the episode there's nothing out there because we get to see it hey where are they coming from but what we just heard tells me it's not 20 minutes battle stations thrusters to battle state we're at our only station we can be at transport vessel achilles to all ships in grid, Battle stations. Okay. Right here. We're going as fast as we can. Right. Yeah, they're going down. Wink. Right in the heel. This is the dodge sequence we love. Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[33:09] Music.

[33:16] Is this the same actor that plays Benzane later on? No, but it sure looks similar. It does, doesn't it? He did such a good job as Six. They're like, oh, let's bring you back his Benzane. That's a Vorlon ship. I recognize it. Straight from Tron. Probably specifically that's Kosh's ship. Yeah, because we get the run-in with Kosh and Morden coming up here. They're not for you. Uh-oh. He feels it. He didn't anticipate seeing Kosh here. No. He's gone. He's gone. Now's the time to do it. But the shadows next to him were like, dude. Well, because he can talk to him. He has...

[34:02] He's a little too close. He's standing a little too close. You are a very persistent young man. I have to be. I'm not allowed to leave here until you've answered my question. you really want to know what i want you really want to know the truth he's gonna dive in but i just have to like say like put yourself in any in jakar's shoes in in londo's shoes some dude with beautiful hair who by the way i think i paused almost exactly where you have him on your on your background it's yeah real close but yeah he stops and he's just like what do you want what do you want and out of nowhere you're like i'm gonna tell you things i've never even told my therapist yeah like like a little little unrealistic.

[34:45] I want it all back the way that it was does that answer your question you know what he never said right there hmm i had i had this wrong for five seasons but him going after the narn he never said a word about the narn no and you know what that's why he's the better candidate narn the jacar and the narn want this the centauri yeah centauri want the galaxy there's no end to they want to be back But, but you know what I also heard in the middle of that? Londo has a personal thing in that. Yeah. I want to stop running around. Like I'm always late for an appointment. Like there's the one side where he talks about his, his nationalism. He talks about his patriotism. He talks about him and the Centauri being what they used to be, but also me.

[35:36] There's some me in here as well. And that's really interesting. It is. and i think timing it with his conversation with kiro that we were just talking about it's even more interesting because he just got that yeah where do we go wrong where did we lose it so he's got that front of mind and then he comes and opens that door and it just all comes out right right but look talk about ed wasser as an actor just for a second everything you need to know about him is in his face right here right there and this is what jms was talking about like he ed wasser smiling and he's being really nice and he's trying to be really really helpful but you know by looking in his eyes he is no good exactly he is dirty and he's about to do something that is not okay all of that's about to come true and and londo and jakar and delin and the whole rest of them are putty in his hands 100 and he knows it and he knows it and he's just family's like that's my way in that's where i'm going there is something much bigger about this guy who oh by the way he's like the b plot maybe even the c plot of this episode yeah you know what i mean which is where i sit back and go it didn't have to be he could you could have put this thread in any episode it's not really except for i mean i guess the eye does connect because the reason this is top of mind for londo is because of what's going on with the eye right now so i i i appreciate.

[37:05] That I retract what I said James okay I got it and the whole Raider thing he's gonna wrap into it here sure and also sure but almost save a thought for after the show okay yes it does, the ship of yours that's about to depart commander this is not a good time, I have to warn you, we received information that... Commander, look out!

[37:28] That's fine, we're not really invested in Kiro. Are you sure it's not the same actor as Insane? And if anybody tries to block the docking bay, I'll use the ship's thrusters and burn my way through. Yeah, he's too, uh... He won't try to stop you. Now move. But he's got the hair for sure. What are you doing? You can't just let him go. We'll program the jump gate to project the ship's ID code. We'll let him get outside to keep him from damaging the station. But once they're outside believe me they're not going anywhere i like i like sinclair.

[37:59] He's like i got shadows the shadows are coming for him so we understand now she's literally meaning the shadow correct but i think what we also understand in production world the shadows weren't necessarily meaning the shadows they were just this was a descriptor of like a prophetic descriptor which is usually not super accurate of what these guys are of the shadow men right it's like it later becomes like that's actually what they are is the shadow mystery thing over here i still don't feel like garibaldi should be the guy out here leading us he has had patience yeah this is where getting keffert's a good point it's funny what a big deal it is there's a raider ship that can generate and then in the future everything generates so fast yeah like suzanne and says as a prophet, she might not even know what the shadows are, like a Nostradamus thing. That's a shadow of some kind. Texas Atlas Shock points out that Garibaldi.

[39:01] Although they explain it with Sinclair and Ivanova about how they have to have so many flight hours in to maintain their flight status. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to watch this through the lens of like, is Kosh a bad guy? Leave this place. They are not for you. Go. Leave. You know what I, you know what I'm loving here? All right. Symbolically. Think Star Wars. Good lightsabers are colored. Blue and yellow and green and purple. Usually, usually the softer end of the spectrum, the blues. right okay um i see bad lightsabers are colored they're all red red okay this is universal this is coloring right the black and white red and blue softer you know that that that side of the spectrum what color of light is kosh bathed in right now as in red no what color of light is he bathed in right well right now it's blue but he had red going over but the red goes over him flip it over to what's going on with morden he's bathed in red most of the time but then it goes off of him and now he's in blue and then he comes back in red right look at you but they're both red and bluing they're both red and bluing like amazing yep uh-huh see yeah yeah yeah god that's good that's such a good catch and it is like neither one of them is good neither one of.

[40:28] There's the hero music again. See, look, they're all in blue. You see this? They're all in blue, right? What's the afterburner color of the Raiderships? They've been kind of pinkish reddish. There you go, pinkish reddish. Jeez, man. Yeah, this is nuts. This is nuts. I can remember if the shadow came here or if it was later.

[40:57] Music.

[41:02] It seems Ambassador Kosh's encounter suit was damaged, but he's not telling how. Just asked for some equipment to have it fixed. What about our ships? So... Star Furies were disabled. The implication there is Morden in the shadows and Kosh got in a little scuffle. A little throw down. A little... Awww. Look, we're big. We're organized. But in no way are we big enough to help you knock over the Centauri government and put you in charge. I don't care how much leverage you think the eye gives you. You think they're going to follow you just like that? Not a chance. But I helped you. He's recruiting a ragtag group of raiders. I hope you'll overthrow the government. Point cost us nearly every credit we've stolen over the last five years with the ransom We can get for this we can buy one maybe even two more that made it worth taking the risk not your plan The lesson here, don't get in bed with bad guys. Right? Yeah. When they're called raiders? Demands for the eye, but they won't consider paying your ransom until they have proof that you're still alive Yeah, here's the shadow The big black blobby thing, For all we know, that's their first incursion into regular space Whoever it is, go away And never come back Ah, Mr. Morden Ah.

[42:22] But before I go, a gift from friends you don't know you have. You know, I was just trying to figure out why the shadows went and got the Raiders. Like, for what purpose? It was just to get this thing. That's all it was. They chased Kiro down for the eye. Just for this right here. I knew that the first time around. I just forgot watching this again.

[42:42] How? Where did you go, eh? Let me buy you a drink. My good dear friend. Let me buy you a fleet of drink. How can I ever find you to thank you? I feel like that thing should have a little more weight to it. We will find you, Investor. We will find you. Basically, he's standing right there. He's just got the changeling net over him or whatever. Yeah. The shadows are like... Yeah. But every name was rejected until they got to you. Rejected by whom? The Minbari government. They were the first to sign on to support Babylon 5 on the condition that they had approval over who was assigned to run this place. They wanted you.

[43:14] Why? I don't know. This is the way he figured they were trying to set him up as a secret agent. Totally checks right now. Minbari were the first to sign up to support Babylon 5. They didn't pay for it. They didn't contribute. They didn't do construction. They just said, yeah, we'll come in. Well, we find out they did financially support. They did? That's later that we find that out. They did? Okay, I forget that. Okay. So they bought their way in, and they bought their commander for approval. It makes me wonder what the Narn, the Centauri, I assume the Vorlon did nothing. Right. Like, but what did they, what was their stipulations to joining the whole thing? Yeah. You know, I feel like the League of Not All In Worlds just pushed in. Cool, we can come too. Yeah. We all get one shared vote? Well, that's better than none, I guess. He told me, but we came through the attack at one piece. The station's safe. The vision is still there, but I can let you see if you will trust me. Basically, she's doing a mind meld. Uh-huh. Yeah, right there. She's touching his face. Oh my God, it's a mind meld. I thought it's her palm instead of her fingers. Okay, here we go.

[44:20] Bro, it is sleeping in light. No. No. Watch. The one little thing coming out the front. I get it. But it comes out and it spins around. Yeah, we don't see the whole thing. We don't see the line of ships because of the... But yeah, there it is. That's JMS. Stop. Stop. Stop it. That thing was blowing up and that thing was escaping this was not okay we've got everything shut down we're gonna come out we're gonna turn around it's a controlled explosion that is not the same he was escaping from something that was already blowing up on the inside it's time not the same it's time dilation that's all it is not the same overlaps that's it and also we see the explosion in sleeping in light it starts at one point it goes that's not what happened but this is from amiga level cg which is why they had to do it this way.

[45:18] Four years later they do the other so like it's better listen i i get why people would get really excited to draw these two lines together this i somebody who goes to a convention who sees jms before i do ask him this question legit and not where he's just gonna lie and say yes was this right here intended to reflect what happens in sleeping in light because it does not because i am telling you it looks like the thing is escaping where explosions are already happening so what i believe is at this point.

[45:47] Maybe there was still the idea of Babylon five being the first five years and Babylon prime being the second five year piece and the conclusion of Babylon five. Stop. I'm going to stop you. Okay. I'm going to stop you. You and I are going to do a special episode based on this later. Perfect. Don't go further. Okay. Brent is ignorant to something that Jeff is privy to. We're going to do a special thing on this later. Breaking news. do not go further but remember this however i will do this i'm going to take my headphones off oh yeah yeah you say what you need to to the audience and then let me know what i come back on so this is when in so babylon 5 the first five year arc ends with babylon 5 getting blowed up and it's the minbari i believe who we're going to do it uh maybe this is the warrior cast it's been a little a couple about a week or so since i've read it but then in babylon prime the second five year arc, they escaped the Babylon four and, uh, and use that. So, um, so I think this is actually more of a prescient vision of the end of the original Babylon five. And don't, don't read some of the chat. So I'm going to not, I'm actually, I'm putting, Hey, uh, I am not seeing the rest of the chat. I'm putting it away from my own man. I'm back in the freaking no spoiler. Yeah. Yeah. Damn it. Just don't we get to the other one? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, here's what I just learned about myself. I am awful at lip reading. Well, I'm also horrible at speaking. And so...

[47:13] I am awful you ever watch john boy he does these these breakdowns particularly of baseball of like plays that happen and whenever ref umpires and coaches get into it and like he just lip reads to say what they're saying to each other and goes back and forth and he's he's really good at it i'm like no i i suck at that game so anyway here we go i get why people would like it being the same thing it's not this is a possible future commander and it is my hope that you may yet avoid it.

[47:52] But to your earlier point everything is a possible future is this the one where i got really upset with this because it takes all the teeth out of it and you were upset throughout the entire rest of the series well i mean what's this gonna be because i mean it could just be anything it is It makes all the teeth out of what just happened when you do that. Just say that it is what it is because otherwise she's – you know what? She's not a seer. She can't tell us what's going to happen. She can't tell us what could happen. Well, you know what? I can tell you what could happen. Yeah. Hey, you know what? Eventually, this thing is probably going to blow up. There you go. Pay me. Hey, you know what? This thing actually – what's going to happen is its orbit is going to start to degrade around Epsilon 3 and it's going to crash into the planet. That's one possibility. Right. Like, I hate it when writers do that. Like, if you're going to do something like this, have the balls. Yeah, I'm calling you out. Have the balls to let your prophecy be your prophecy. And string yourself and marry yourself to that thing. And don't get away from it.

[48:52] Music.

[49:03] That was Signs and Portents for the second time. Had quite a few little deep dives we did during the watch. Any thoughts come top of mind for you you want to talk about now? You did have something you said you wanted to save until afterwards. I forget exactly what that was, but here's where I am right now. Okay, what did I say before going into this episode? That you were kind of like, eh, it could have happened whenever. Not necessarily a big deal. Okay. What did I say the first time around? uh game-changing episode big deal this is a pretty flargan great episode it really is this is a great episode um i love it i.

[49:41] Music. is about something changes this episode in so many ways but it actually still kind of feels like the first time yeah you know um and and not just because there's so many details of like little details that i didn't necessarily remember but like that feeling that you described that i said that i actually kind of remember having that feeling i have that same feeling right now yeah this is a pretty great episode this is definitely a really important episode it's more than just more than coming on saying what do you want and having wando give that little spiel yeah so much more there's so much more that goes into this whole deal right but um, At the end of the day, it's an episode that was engaging, entertaining. It was full. I love episodes like this. It was so full of symbolism and, and just artistic creative creativity that you can break down from the score being mostly in minor chords to the times when it wasn't in minor chords. Yeah. And it went to the hero music, right. To, to the lights, lighting people in certain colors at certain times to Morton and Kosh being there in the same room. And it's swinging back and forth on both of them. It's like, oh, my God. Like, that's intense. I will eat my hat if you come out here and tell me that that's not intentional. Right. Like, it's, oh, my gosh.

[49:44] Mean we're not some some deep space franchise the station

[51:12] This little eye, I've still miffed that it turns into a nothing burger, ultimately.

[51:19] It's a, I said this in the chat earlier, it's just a MacGuffin. And I don't like it when things are just MacGuffins. Yeah, it's just something to move the plot forward in this particular episode. It's not actually a thing that becomes a deal It's a mcguffin. I really want that eye to become a deal. I know it's not going to that's okay You know what i'm able to do set that aside because i'm a grown-up and I can think like this I can set that aside and I can look at what we are given and I understand what's happening with morden The conversation. Oh, here's another great one. Jeff the conversation that he has with jakar which was almost a good answer uh-huh and then he has a conversation with londo which was a better answer both could have possibly worked it's just this one was better i feel like with jacar's he got to the and then and jacar's like i don't know man like i guess we show up to work the next day and then i think that's the moment where mourner's like okay yeah you're not my guy i i need someone ruthless not someone who just wants revenge yeah, Although I think he could have worked with Revenge. He could have got there. And I'm pretty sure Jakar at this point in his development, he could have worked with him. He could have made that work. Yeah. And then Wando goes on to become the religious leader.

[52:39] The Len with the little thing in her forehead, this just makes absolutely no sense. And I will still defend not the scene from Sleeping in Light where the thing blows up. That's fair. I'm going to defend that also based on a conversation we'll have in the future. great. Jeff, how about you? Yeah, it's so similar. And I think what really popped for me this time were those artistic choices. Like even to the point of Wendell and Sam Warden and all of a sudden he's cloaked in shadow, just so many little pieces. And what I think is great about it, this is such a more complete episode on a second viewing. You came into this being like, yeah, we watched the whole series and like, it just turned into pieces of whatever, you know, whatever. But in watching this, it literally told us the entire story of the Shadow of Worland War. And then a lot of the Centauri Narn stuff as well was all encapsulated in this episode and set up beautifully. Yeah, this was beautiful. It was perfect. Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. What I didn't, though, really get out of it were messages.

[53:43] You know what? I was so, I was so engaged with everything else going on. Wasn't even a thought in my head. I checked in a few times with myself, but you know what? Last time, uh, you gave this one to Delta's. And if you remember in season one, Delta's were kind of a, what's the message? And what did we think of the episode sort of thing? So two, I gave it one. Yeah. It just, this, this was, this was an episode. This was, it was just an episode. This was a semi truck full of plot. If I had to guess what I would have given it to for, maybe the message of Lady Adira that the future is not set in stone, you can make of it what you want. Maybe that might have been it. I don't know. I'd have to go back and listen again. You listened. I didn't.

[54:26] So, yeah. So the fun part we get to do now, Brent, is, and it's on you this week. We're building up our definitive ranking of all the episodes of the first season of Babylon 5. Now for the second time which has been weirdly lining up pretty well with our first time ranking as well but we'll see if that continues our current top five and fifth place we've got by any means necessary followed by believers and the sky full of stars in number three the war prayer and our number one episode on the season so far is death walker brent where are you putting signs and portents it's not much of a discussion jeff this is our new number one on this 100 100 100 I like death Walker. It's not even, I mean, no other episode is even close to this one at this point, to be honest with you, not even close. So in our original ranking of this, um, death Walker was our number two on the season. Uh, the war prayer was number three. Yeah. And the sky full of stars, number seven signs and portents was number eight.

[55:27] This is the first episode we've had that is out of the order. Yeah. But I think that this is one where, I mean, my God, just it, it's completeness of the series. How could it be anything else? I've been waiting for this moment, Brent, since we hit record. Oh my gosh. You've been waiting for this moment for like three years. A couple of years. A couple of years. Oh my God. So that's it for signs and portents next week. Jeff's so excited y'all. I wish if you guys are just listening to the audio, let me just, Jeff is giddy. He's like a school girl right now. He is so, he is smiling ear to ear. he's giggling over there we're watching tko tko is next week.

[56:11] Oh, my God. For some people, this will be a reckoning, right? Oh, my God. Jeff's going to see it for the garbage it is. For me, this is going to be redemption. You're going to see just how brilliant this episode truly is. I cannot wait. Brent, do you remember what you predicted TKO was going to be? Yeah. Is this the first time I said this? Because this is a phrase I will go on to say a lot over the run of the show. So Jeff, I made a prediction that the next episode would be a palate cleanser. Yeah. Which is what it was. Which is what it was. It is a palate cleanser. Something about it being a favorite episode. You listen, Jeff. Did I elaborate on that a little bit? Yeah. You said this is probably a favorite episode within the fandom. TKO is a favorite episode within the fandom. It is a favorite episode within Jeff's fandom. It is. Yes. I'm not wrong on that. But I said, basically, it's like the Chakotay boxing episode of Voyager, which was not great. It was not. As I say, Matt down here, we got the redemption of Jeff Aiken.

[57:23] I don't know. And Sarah laid it down. How many minds can Jeff change? I am on a mission to change minds. Three. He can do three is basically, I think, the limit there. Yeah. So I wanted this to be about an underground MMA thing. I figured that Ivanova would have to be the one who had to fight in it. But my ultimate for real guess was this was gonna be the drug episode. Be a new drug on the street called TKO and Garibaldi was gonna get roofied with it. Garibaldi's involved in it, so there's that. God, I am really...

[57:54] I'm really excited for this. I know. And I'm going to own now and I can, I'll own it next week also, but I have watched this episode since watching it the first time. You have. Now that's it. I haven't watched it in probably a good two years, but, uh, I was on the gray 17, uh, podcast to discuss this one. I watched it before that. And then I, I've watched it at least once afterwards. So I will, um, I will endeavor to be objective in my not quite second time viewing. I am super excited for this brand. We're going to do it right here next week. And in fact, like be here, be here for this, right? If, if you have an opportunity to join us during the recording, prioritize it. This is going to be a banner moment in Babylon five for the second time. Check us out right here next week. We're going to do it all. Please. If you have not already done so subscribe on the YouTube, on the audio apps, whatever's out there, subscribe, uh, leave a rating, a review. If they're able to, like on GoodPods, Spotify, YouTube, leave a comment.

[58:57] That's always awesome when we get some interaction from all of you on all the apps out there. It's super cool. But the thing that you can do that truly makes a difference, not only for Brent and myself, but to the community as a whole. I think that's one of the things I know I take a tremendous amount of pride and am very happy about in the work, Brent, that you and I do here. Is we're part of just this incredible community of fantastic people. We have a bunch of them here with us now. As we're recording, we have people who are watching this ahead of time in its full unedited state. And then we have our communities on YouTube and across the audio podcast networks and channels as well. I love it so much. So share.

[59:36] Share this episode, share this show with someone who could really benefit from being a part of this awesome community and could enjoy this show for the first or even second time.

[59:47] So with that, I am going to wrap up. I'm going to get out of here because I cannot wait to get to TKO. So we'll see you next week. Hey, Jeff. Oh my God. I was so close. I've done it before. Yeah. What's up? What's, what's up, Brent? What's going on? Um, question. Okay. How, um, how do you think this is all going to end? The episode or like the podcast? What do you mean? Yeah. Like, like the podcast, like, like you and me, this, you were talking about this a bit. This is like, like, like, here's the thing. I had a dream the other day and I just can't stop thinking about it. So what happened, man? How, how, how do we end? Well, what, what happens is you and I wind up getting into a big fight and the whole thing just, you know, like height of our popularity, but we get in a big fight and the whole thing just like we just walk away. All right. And it's, it's like a few years, but then this other podcaster comes in and starts stirring some stuff up and actually we wind up reuniting in like a final battle like a war of the ratings where you and i come back together and we produce the best content we've ever made ever and while we ultimately will go our separate ways and we did go our separate ways for quite a while we do reunite for this one final battle and we come out victorious but ultimately it's because Because you make the greatest sacrifice a podcaster can make. What's what is that? Your microphone. You destroy your microphone in the process.

[1:01:16] And so you can't podcast anymore because your mic's gone. Is that really going to happen? I mean, I don't know. It's just one possible future because anything could happen and stuff like this. We also could just keep going and going and going and going and going. For crying out loud.

[1:01:34] Music.