Soul Hunter | For the Second Time

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin.

[0:39] Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed.

[0:47] Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things we didn't know about or catch the first time around and you know what we're still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in this series are we going to find new ones that we didn't catch the first time around are we going to jump back into the ones that we saw the first time and double down on those who knows we'll find out in i don't know about 45 minutes or so we're going to be asking certain questions we've got a litmus test now that we use jeff of how we sort of define this is this uh the the complete exhaustive definitive no but it's a good guide we look for things that hold up a mirror to society uh things that tell us that there can be hope that there'll be a better future out there or we're also looking for things that tell us how to be better human beings to one another another thing we love to do is play games here on our show and we used to play this really fun prediction game where we guessed what the next episode is going to be about what we kind of know, or at least I kind of remember what the episodes are going to be about. So what we're going to do instead is go back, take our brains to the way back machine and see if we remember what we thought this episode was going to be about or anything like that. Brent, do you remember what you thought it was going to be? Oh, I sure do. Oh, do you? I sure do. Yeah. So I said I just wanted it to not be somebody sucking a soul out of a person's body. Turns out, Jeff. Yeah.

[2:13] Well, we get some of that. How about you? What'd you say? I was so far off. I thought that we were going to, and I didn't pull the clip. I love, I love the idea of doing that, but I thought that we were going to learn more about Kosh and his people, the, uh, oh, I don't know. And maybe they're like a deeply spiritual, the Vorlon, that's what they're called. But maybe they're a spiritual kind of people and they go on like some sort of a vision quest as part of their culture and no on all fronts. No, well, no, no, no. Does it count that the Vorlon are a spiritual people if they literally are the angels and gods and whatever societies out there? Would you call the Goa'uld spiritual or godly people? Well, but the whole thing is they're posing as the gods. And the Vorlon aren't. No, because aren't the Vorlon, like, saying that. Saying that they are them? Yeah, like the whole premise behind Stargate, and it only upholds as long as the script calls for it, is that humans already had these beliefs in these gods. The ghoul just showed up and go, I'm going to be this one now, right?

[3:18] Whereas this one is saying, no, the Vorlon came in and were like, hey, let's call this one Buddha or whatever. I don't know. Maybe they just assumed their role. Maybe they are just as ghoul as the ghoul. You know, that could be a podcast thing in and of itself, that the Vorlon are just the Gould. When we get to the end of Stargate and the end of Babylon 5 for the second time, that'll be the thing. We bring them together and ask that big question. Yeah, I do remember when we were going through the first time and we got to the whole thing about the Vorlon just losing their ever-loving minds and just going half-calked on everybody. And people were like, yeah, so what do you think the Vorlons now?

[4:00] They've been doing this all the time. Like, oh, wow, that's... Anyway right well brent we get to go see what this episode is actually about right now at this very moment what do you say we go watch the episode i i think we should do that but uh, fabio our good our good friend fabio oh yeah i just have to point out he says that the great egg is a vorlon egg spoiler alert fabio fabio member of our council chambers for those of you on youtube or uh are listening on a podcast our council chambers uh tier on our patreon are invited to join us during our recordings we like to pull some of their comments in from time to time and probably ruining the great egg for me before even seeing it again well because you're only going to see it the once i know but because never mind i was going to go down a path i won't don't hey for those of you that uh didn't catch us talking about this the first time i strongly recommend that you do that you go back you find the episode either in the podcast feed or on the YouTube playlist. I recommend you pause this right here. You go over, you consume that first time episode and then come back. You will enjoy this one a whole lot more.

[5:13] If you're watching us on YouTube right now, you're about to see the edited kind of cut up reaction video style thing that YouTube does of this episode. And if you're on our Patreon page or a subscriber to our Patreon, you get to see the full and unedited version of this, which you can see if you visit us at patreon.com slash Babylon five first. And this is just a warning to everybody out there who has not been through Babylon five from this point forward. Everything is full spoilers. We could be discussing anything from any episode of Babylon five at any point in the timeline. So consider yourself thusly been warned, especially if you have not been through this incredible series yet for the first time. Good news. As Jeff said, we have an entire separate like feed for the first watch. So go join us with that one and catch up with us on this one after you do that one. I want to read this before we go. I'm sorry. I'm going to read this before we go. So JMS says this. He says, well, I just saw a cut of this episode that's going to air second. The one that's guest starring Morgan Shepard.

[6:18] Man, on the question of did you learn anything from the pilot, this thing moves like a sumbitch. It's very unusual and very creepy, and it's filled with lots of character stuff and a good bit of background about our characters rendered in active ways. All of that is true. I'll give it that. I'm really dying to see what people think of this one when it airs. It manages to take what would normally be considered a science fantasy and deal with it from a science fiction perspective without compromising the latter at all. It is a very, very strong episode.

[6:50] Dear J. Michael Straczynski, Jeff Akin. Well, we'll see what Jeff Akin thinks on a second watch. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Let's go. That's Babylon 4. Green is Babylon 4, right? That's an explorer ship. Full speed ahead. You need an extra little push to get in the gate. That's just a little ship. Oh, Asimov. Oh, the Asimov. There you go.

[7:23] Commander Sinclair. Hey, he must be the bad guy. It's been a while. Right? I'm sorry. Did he just walk in going, Commander Sinclair. He did. Yes, he did. Where is that Franklin for the rest of the series? I want that guy. I'm Stephen Franklin from Englewood. This is Vincent Vega.

[7:49] Commander Sinclair. That's great. Do you guys notice this stuff on your second watches because whoa boy all right look at ivanova she's like who's this medical chief of staff a pleasure i followed your work while i was okay nope sorry look look we talked about it a lot last week with talia and ivanova we know franklin you see this right here he's giving her the eye because this is franklin's eye and he's like what we learn in all uh sci-fi space station series is when the new doctor comes on.

[8:23] Board from go they're a creep that's another thing that deep space nine ripped off of babylon five yeah that's the thing i will i will totally blame star trek for stealing that this year is because of franklin no but listen this is sexual tension right here and ivanova ain't having none of it yeah the attention is is he going to assault her or not oh my gosh hey listen i don't put up with any kind of dr franklin slander even early season dr franklin get ready for it no more from you sir here we go commander sinclair this is gonna take forever if we keep doing this let's go i followed your work while i was stationed back home we're honored to have you aboard no thank you why is she following the doctor's work for a point on io he sends his regards frequency silhouette star drive doesn't match anything we've seen before how long before it comes out of hyperspace.

[9:20] You know what would be great is if that jump gate actually had speakers on it that made those sounds as it came out. Oh, yeah. That'd be so good. From the council chambers, Ben says, those on the sexual tension drinking game already getting tipsy. It's on a collision course heading straight for us.

[9:38] It's coming right for us. It's out of control. It's moving so slowly. What can we ever possibly do? It was the dawn of the third age of mankind. Okay, so did Soul Hunter do that to his ship on purpose? The Babylon Project was a Babylon reform. If I remember right, they're chasing, like his people are chasing him down. He's a rogue Soul Hunter, right? He's a murder Soul Hunter. Right. I think he got shot or something. Because like part of his little ship thing is kind of blowed up. Yeah, like, so apparently like even like the little headscarf behind their heads, people were all like, that's the thing. It's a furry thing. Fripping everything off. We weren't the only ones who came into Babylon 5 with a Star Trek bias. The Lurker's Guide has proven that. But look, look, we owned it, and the show was about two Star Trek guys coming over and falling in love with the series. So like Lando and Jakar, we had to start one way in order to end up the other way. It's a good thing we ended up loving it. It would be really awkward if we didn't and we were here doing this now.

[10:37] Right, right. If this is a new technology, a new race, I want that ship intact. He wants that ship intact. I must read the rule book again. Open defense grid. Perhaps I can help identify him. We'll take all the help we can get. Jeff, we don't know that anything's up with the Lynn outside of just being an ambassador at this point, don't we? Correct. That's good, right? For a human, yes. In this case, it may be good. Or he may be hyperventilating before his heart explodes all over the ice on the earth. I like this part about Franklin. He's not like presuming humanity onto people. 50-50, either way I'd stay on this side of the glass if I were you, trust me on this.

[11:14] Kill it. Kill it with fire. Now. Shag tot. Shag tot. Tater tot. No. What are you doing? Dude, I'm sorry. How does Garibaldi let her pull his weapon like that? You have to kill it, Commander. It. It. She calls it it. Yep. Not him. Why should we kill him? He says him. No. It is Shag tot. Shag tot. It is a soul hunter. Get it off this station, Commander. It's probably a good idea. Or we have to listen to him talk. Whichever one comes first is not going to be good for anyone.

[11:53] Yeah, thanks. She's still referring to it as a thing. She's not assigning any kind of personhood. Or, for lack of a better term, humanity to this thing. Even as children have always taken a particular interest in certain classes of Minbari. You must believe me commander it's an interesting which which class which class and you say certain classes there are like you know why not say taking certain interest in two of the classes have been barred i still can i think she's making a reasonable plea you know at this point i mean i i would have more questions if i were sinclair but she's not she's not coming off like you know oh it's just crazy she has real reasoning behind what she's asking for all you got to do is find the little red ball where'd it go okay so he's about to since this dude's death yep but is he of sufficient value we must because like he's a shell game guy you know and that's that is the level of gambling we have it's kind of strange down below the place is practically deserted all right here we go now remember and everyone knows what it is except of humanity, I actually, you know, that bothered me, I think the first time we watched this, but this time I like it because it just shows that like, they're still new to the galactic stage. I would think that they still would have come across the name Soul Hunter. And that it would be...

[13:21] I don't know. And that it would be like a myth. Something you tell your children to get them to behave. And stuff like that. Oh, there he is! That's creepy right there. You know what I mean? I have been to your world.

[13:36] Music.

[13:42] So in River of Souls, I remember being like, oh my gosh, come on, Dime Store Martin Sheen. You're talking like you're a moron. Like, what's going on? I totally forgot this part where they have that moment of learning the language thing. So that's what I thought was dumb in the movie actually is brilliant continuity. It's kind of impressive this is the only person that's about to die on Babylon 5 right now. Out of 250,000 people, yeah, you're not right. You're not wrong. But even this if this isn't a soul worth capturing this is driving home to us that they can sense death yeah death threat it comes is he hearing i like the heartbeat yeah.

[14:15] Music.

[14:26] You know what you know something you know something i learned doing me up a star trek podcast with my buddy matt we discovered a rule in star trek that i think is playing out here and that rule is if you get shot with a phaser pretty much gonna live but if you get stabbed you are dead dead dead dead dead even if the blade is this like two inches long it gets stabbed in your stomach like not your heart not your whatever not like up into your uh you know diaphragm or anything like that just you know right one of my biggest beefs in tv and movies is the gut stab yeah you know on average it takes 72 hours to die from a stab to your stomach like that is a slow painful horrible death i would hope but on tv doctor within 72 hours oh yeah tv it's you're out yeah gone you know it this the way he's speaking like i get it he's learning the language he is whatever but it's just so off-putting as of your you know but i get it like that's the thing jeff like i get it it makes sense within the character that they have that jms has built here right it's the oh i like this part i like this part a lot who are you who wants to admit to being a.

[15:54] So what's cool here is Sinclair believes Delenn and is just bringing everything she's saying. Or he's just trying to... Only the special ones, leaders, thinkers, poets, dreamers, blessed... Podcasters? YouTube stars? What do you think? after you've saved them we enshrine them worship them well this is nonsense.

[16:29] There's the franklin we know you could encode the personality matrix and produce a clone of someone's mind but the idea of taking someone's this is classic franklin right here uh-huh i am superior to you and my knowledge of everything in the world and no matter what you say i'm the We have saved only a few. Very rare. Nia starting the Franklin is an ass counter. One so far. You're the pinnacle of Minbari evolution. We came, I, others. They made a wall of bodies to stop us. He died. Okay. The writing here, again, you and I, it's very off-putting.

[17:11] Also completely understandable given the the state of this right like like completely understandable given the character that is being built yeah makes sense but it's still off-putting can you imagine though a lesser actor trying to do this well we get to see that later a little bit um but so that's a good question like let's think about this because we actually see i was going to say a better actor but i don't know if that's true we see another high caliber actor bring the soul hunter thing to reality you know in river of souls yeah and in both this and that it was it was, God awful. It was so bad. Yeah. It's almost, if you put it in the hands of a lesser actor, it would either just be like so bad or maybe it'd be so bad. It was, it worked. Like, I almost think they're trying to actually do it and act it. And that's, what's hurting it. I don't know. Cause we're supposed to like, it's, I don't know. No, but what I'm saying here, the argument I'm making right now is the worker shepherd is acting his tail off here and actually making this not nearly as bad as it could be trying, trying, I can see he's trying. I don't know, though. I think it'd be so much worse if it was... Imagine Jinkso playing this role. Like, no.

[18:27] I don't know, man. I think that... I prefer this Soul Hunter to Martin Sheen. I agree. And I think part of it is he's bringing... There's an alien-ness to everything about it. Once Martin Sheen can speak, he just had this naivete about things. But don't we don't we get the soul hunter at the end of this the other soldier who like speaks perfect english with no problem it was like yeah look this dude's a little jacked up that's what i remember like that's what i that's what my memory serves like so the need to have these guys talk like this and act like this is again i think i understand it in the context of the character but it just i don't know it's weird but i think because we get that at the end of river of souls also and i think if i were to if i were to write this out as to why that is it's because they've been listening to our comms this whole time. So by the time the guy comes onto the station, he's had a chance to learn the language. Whereas Murder Soul Hunter is in there passed out listening to Franklin talk about how awesome he is and how much better and smarter he is than anyone else. All that he was, all that he could ever be, gone, wasted.

[19:37] Wow. It is an interesting thing to think about, right? From what we know right now, just in Babylon 5, not what we learn in River of Souls and how they really actually just segregate the souls out and, you know, isolate them in a really wasteful way. But we now know there's this guy, you know, who is the greatest of them in Bari and we want him. And if you take what dude just said at face value, he's really trying to like honor this great, like we wanted to preserve this greatness of this race. And they wouldn't let us. And that's such a loss to us and to everyone else. I can see his perspective on this a lot more clearly. Well, see, I think I felt that in the beginning and the first time we watched that. Yeah. These guys truly believe they're doing the right thing. Like this isn't I'm not just out here collecting for the sake of collecting and destroying everything and grave robbing here. I'm actually here to preserve and keep this alive and take care of this so that it doesn't go away. You know It's like they feel like they're the keepers of the zoo Exactly Preserving the animals.

[20:47] They'll go extinct You know without us It wouldn't be so bad If life didn't take so long to figure out Seems you just start to get it right and then, It's over You know he ain't right he ain't wrong about that If we lived 200 years we'd still be human We'd still make the same mistakes You're a pessimist I'm Russian doctor, we understand these things i do think like take remembering what franklin says here you know like right when we start to get it right it goes away i want to say that here because i'm going to bring it up later with a thing that i if i if i remember right i think there's a whole conversation, that like adds to that later on okay so i will gut it from end to end until i find the souls you have stolen from us and what will you do then free them release them you mean kill them Join with the souls of all our people. Melt one into another until they are born into the next generation of Minbari. Remove those souls and the whole suffers. We are diminished. Each generation becomes less than the one before. A quaint lie. Pretty fantasy. The soul ends with death. Unless we act...

[21:59] To preserve it so this is the part i was thinking about so franklin says that you know we just start to figure it out and then we die and the minbari are might feel the same way you know they have a longer lifespan but they're like as soon as we start to figure it out we die but because it's not because their thing isn't reincarnation but it's uh because it's not individual it's.

[22:22] Holistic we go join the greater and that adds to everything and like the theory then is each generation builds a little bit on the on the rest but they're less because of it and just really, i don't know it just gives you pause to think about generational knowledge you know and things like that you know we become better smarter whatever oftentimes we don't but like it is hard because our lifetimes end and you know i think the men through the minbari belief they they don't end but they feed it all i just think i just think that right now we've heard we've heard three different kind of interpretations of a soul with the soul hunter where it's everything right and once it's free it's gone franklin they don't exist this is all hullabaloo and fantasy and then delen each soul we get the language later in passing through gethsemane that the soul is part of the universe and we're all the soul is just an individualized manifestation of the greater universe as a whole but when you steal one of those back we become less and we become less This is the first time that we're getting this idea that something's going on with the memory that they're getting less and less.

[23:33] You know, of course, we know what this goes on to be. Of course, you and I thought that it was they were being transferred to the humans. Yeah. Or something. That's not it. But yeah. Yeah, because I remember we watched this the first time. One of the things we remarked on was, oh, my gosh, apparently souls are a thing. But I just like the different perspectives of them. Yeah, I know one of the things, and I actually really appreciate this with J. And I was in here is he wasn't trying to define what a soul is. He wasn't trying to say, here's what a soul is. And a lot of people were asking that question, I guess, back in the day. He's like, nope, we're just telling you that they're there. And what is it? Well, I'm not going to answer that question for you. Each race has their own thought on it. Does river of souls ruin that? Cause we find out like in river of souls, if I read it right, the soul hunters are correct. Those are the souls. I, I agree. I think those are the souls. I, I do believe that, that the soul hunters are whatever that essence is now also Jeff.

[24:31] I believe in an internal soul. You know, I, as far as human beings go, I don't think you've ever looked locked eyes on a mere mortal. We're all eternal. Okay. And, and so to me, yeah, that those are the souls. I, I buy it. I get it. I think it's a really interesting question of, are the soul hunters right for doing what they do? Yeah. You know, and I think then that just has to go into what happens to the soul after the body dies. He says that after the body dies, the soul dies unless they act to preserve it. I mean, but that's where I think with river of souls, we see that they are souls and we see that they want to be free.

[25:09] They want to not be trapped. I feel like in a way that answers these, like right now we have this big open-ended question and it's fascinating and, debatable and all the great stuff. And then river of souls comes in and says, actually, here's the answer. Except this though, Jeff, go back to the zoo example. Tell me one animal that if you open the cage door and just leave it there long enough, that animal is not going to go off. Oh, I'm not saying what they're doing is right by any means. It might not. No, but, but what I'm saying is, is what they're doing is it wrong because here's here's what we know about this and there's a lot of people that don't like zoos and what zoos do fair enough i don't have a problem with them but the zoos do provide they provide food they provide medical care they provide all sorts of stuff place safe place for these animals to be you know where they're not going to get eaten and they're like yeah zoos that are in general are a good thing they help make sure that the population of said animal is is maintained and that we don't lose these animals to extinction the animals don't know better than to not run out the fricking gate and to stay here. Okay. Apply that to the soul hunters. Listen, we let those bodies die and those souls go out unless we act to preserve it. And you souls don't understand what we're doing. So we have to do it for you. It's not that different if you look at it from that standpoint, but I guarantee you every single other leopard out there is like, yo, you got my leopard friend in there. Let's go get them out. And that leopard friend's like, yeah, let me out.

[26:37] You know so yeah yeah just a lot to think about there's a real there's a deep debate in the whole thing uh-huh you were there at the death of your leader dukat we stopped you from taking what you have no right to take you stopped me from saving him that is where it began to go wrong the lost souls one after another after another voice is still i failed because you stopped me so he's describing his descent right here so one thing this conversation hits on an entirely different level on the second watch having seen the ducat episode what was that episode oh that was the um the dreaming the one where they did the dream walk yeah yeah that one stuff we're gonna call dreamwalking dreamwalking was.

[27:28] The name of that episode yeah because that's how bonk bonk we are with these show titles um having seen that and knowing that this little conversation is huge yeah on the first watch this little conversation is passing we we remember you know what i you know what i i got wrong here was because i thought he had the soul of ducat oh okay and what he just said what he just said was you stopped me from getting the soul of Dukat we talked about that in the beginning you and I argued about that I'm like no they stopped him because there was the moment where like oh there's soul hunter ships out there oh gosh and that's like the only other mention we didn't get to see the part of them the bodies blocking him from it and it makes me wonder if that's really how it happened because like he clearly has lost his mind through this whole thing and so he did create this whole other piece I don't know but yeah he lost ducat's soul and that's what led to all this and he started going nuts yeah stewart in the chat atonement was this one thank you they called you satire delen of the great council curious it's the first time we've heard great council what does that mean one of the great leaders of the membari doing here playing ambassador again we had on your first watch that you were there at the death of Dukat. You stopped us. That falls by the wayside. What sticks out to you is you're a tie of the great council.

[28:56] Great Mimbari leaders like, oh, Deline is so much more than what she's been saying she is. Than just an ambassador it was the first time we got the everyone here isn't quite what they seem without having that told to us but you know to the people who say that yeah we missed all that well come on it was on the screen right in front of you yeah it sure was you're right yeah there it is just didn't pick up on it wasn't important but i tell you what when we got to it in its home we're like oh we remember that because it was that guy like it's there it's there you just gotta let But that whole conversation hits different on the second watch here.

[29:31] Did he just bash himself over the head? I don't know what happened. Isolab 1. Metal Earth. Is it this? This is the old jailbreak trick, right? Like, I'm going to pretend to be knocked out, pretend to be hurt. He's going to reach up and grab his pistol. Yep, there it is. Really? How are you a guard for 10 minutes and not know to be on the lookout for this? In 80 situations. Garibaldi hires some down on their luck guys. You know, maybe this guy's not quite as qualified. Has this guy never seen a western, a pirate movie, a sci-fi, like, anything? I wonder what's going to happen to me now. The more important the person about to die, the more they're drawn to it. If that's the reason, all we have to do is figure out who's about to die. I'd almost want Ivanova to be like, all we have to do is find someone important and kill them.

[30:22] That's because they're all afraid of him. That's okay, okay. Those guys look like rejects from Star Wars. The Grath! This is Commander Jeffrey Sinclair of Babylon 5. Please identify yourself. You know who and what I am. They said that this guy is the shmarmy guy in the dock worker. And if we refuse access. Oh, really? There will be more than one. They'll clear you for docking. We'll link instructions directly to your nav system. If I may ask, who are you here to see? I am here to see you, Commander. Because you're going to die. Before it's too late. That is ominous, knowing what they know. Because, see, look, he speaks English, like, perfectly right out the gate. Which is not to say that, like, one guy cannot speak it and the other guy could. We have people speak different languages here. Like, fine. Does that say security? Security!

[31:08] It does. Just caught the relay. It's security. I like the look of this. I don't like the sound of this. Hell, I don't like anything about it. Someone is about to die, Commander. And it would be at his hands. See, this was the problem with the Soul Hunter, was he was killing people before they were ready to die. Yeah. Like, that makes him bad. I have come for you, Satide and Len, to save your soul. He sounds like a missionary. Right. Any cost. To save your soul. He was ordered to preserve the soul of the Minbar, the leader, and others. Each time he was prevented or arrived at the death too late, souls were lost. Our order was disgraced. Basically, he was an unsatisfactory employee. He wasn't really bad at his job. I'm obsessed with the fear of losing souls. To lend.

[31:59] Still trying to figure out our way around the station, Jeff. I just want a map. You know, I'm really glad that he doesn't have her in the shape of a cross right now. I wonder if they did it first and someone's like, nope, bring those arms up.

[32:15] Knowledge. I will be careful. You will hardly feel it when your body dies. That thing just looks goofy as hell. It still does. But this is creepy as F, dude. If you can get over that, this... Yeah. I mean... Is she giving birth? Let me go! Let me go! This feels out of character for Delenn. Do not discomfort your soul.

[32:49] And your heart beats. Fabio, foot fetish counter at one. Ha ha ha ha! You will feel as if you are falling quickly that's a good map of the station did we miss that the first time totally we absolutely did yes not again dude i got a ppg too you do yeah i have one over my office oh right here my hand dude watch is so cool man these things these i love you're gonna get two souls today murder soul hunter, why do you fight for her she is satire in her soul they're using you see this is why in the chat they're talking about he saw the chrysalis transition and stuff this is why i think he saw the plan for sinclair was this right here no i i agree with you it makes total sense now.

[33:45] Yeah i i never meant any heart see he can communicate with him i remember that.

[33:56] Child's about to do the final suck, is that bringing it out of the genitals this is awful this looks so bad yeah, but if i take it away right and just what's going on what a massively heroic moment for i mean so much of this you just have to go okay what was their budget what were they capable of doing what was hollywood capable of doing at this time like there's so much of that you've got to give that a pass but looking at it through modern eyes you're like they're looking at it through early 90s eyes that was.

[34:37] Ron's like he is a guy.

[34:41] So i hear you saw something you know what he wants to know what he saw did you see that did you see the look in his eye that's locker room tie he turned around he's like hey so uh down there i heard you saw something huh huh huh huh tell me about it tell us about it tell me about it got any pictures yeah come on doc likes the pictures i'm a doctor i've seen it all anyway right want to see the pictures i got i will take no franklin slander from you sir you're gonna get a lot of it i'm afraid listen this but that was the look that was the huh, totally totally i want that sinclair aircraft sign all right language it is pretty cool designated keyword remember back when keywords were a thing find more about this at aol.com keyword Babylon 5, honorific title applied to ruling body known as grey council known as grey council the ruling body be assigned to ambassadorial duties that's like assigning the vice president so isn't Claire knows her secret I think it's going to wait about 6 more episodes See, I thought we met later in this episode. No. I thought there was a whole thing where he and Dylan were walking down, and he calls her to sit high, and she's like, don't you say that. That's a thing for a while. Don't say anything about it. Right. But I thought we first had a lot of blood.

[36:11] What happened to my brother's collection? Life's full of mysteries. Consider this one of them. That's pretty badass, actually. That's a great line. It really is. She still has this.

[36:20] Music.

[36:23] His little potato sack bag. So if she breaks the orbs, do they just boosh? Oh, she is breaking the thing. Yeah, I like that. What I don't like is that she's breaking glass with her bare hands. Like, it's not going to hurt. Dude, she's a bad mama-jama. She's already lost all that blood. Look at all those glass orbs around her on the floor there, man. She's done a few of these. And by doing it with her hands and taking a moment, she's honoring each individual soul. It's pretty cool.

[36:52] Music. Some interesting vocalization choices by Mira Furlan in this episode. Right, right. All right, Brent, we just finished watching Soul Hunter for the very first time. What are your first thoughts on this thing? Well, I think first thoughts have to compare to the original first thoughts. My original first thoughts was, man, what a weird-ass episode. And you could tell this is a first-season episode. It's not good. One of the lowest-rated episodes of the season. I didn't look up where we ranked it last time. I'll do that here in a few minutes, but it's just not good. Was this the bottom episode from the first season? do you remember this or um infection um either way put them both at the bottom that's fine, I didn't mind this episode. There were things here and there that were just off. Some of the effects were just not good. The props were very low budget. I think at some point I said, this looks like a low budget community theater production.

[37:00] Yeah.

[38:06] But so much of what happens throughout the course of the series is first mentioned here. Exactly. And is explored here. And there's no way that I can sit back and go, this is not a, this is a skip episode. Like there's so much of this that sets up. And we even talked about like, when we get to the episode atonement in season four, we remember this episode. Yeah. And so this episode does stick with you and I respect it for that. Also knowing that this is like one of JMS's pride and joys, I guess, from the first season. And he's very defensive of this episode. I can see why.

[38:44] You know there's a lot of choices that he makes that make a lot of sense given the characters that he's built yeah right i still just didn't need it as a viewer you know particularly the language thing like i just it just i get where you're coming from i get why you're writing that, it's the pink castle man it just good on good an idea it's it's the the the what's that thing from from legend of the rangers the the war machine room with the girl there you go yeah the weapons room the weapons room it's the weapons room like it's a cool idea on paper right and just and and they tried it again with martin sheen and that other movie river souls and it didn't work there really well either so you know when when the second soul hunter came in and he's just straight with everybody like it's just like thank god that we're here like you know um anyway uh So, yeah, I didn't mind this episode. I don't mind this episode. I can watch this one. I was not...

[39:44] What I'm really curious about is you, Jeff, because you hated this episode. You were annoyed by this guy. I'm curious to know, Jeff, were you as annoyed this time as you were last time? I almost stopped watching Babylon 5 because of this episode the first time. It was awful. And I think more highly of it now. It's more watchable.

[40:11] You talk about how it feels very season one. I think it feels very episode two of season one. You know what I mean? Like in close, like I feel like I feel cramped. I feel like things aren't figured out. The characters are still a little weird. And then just having this confusing, overacting figure show up in the middle of that. So disorienting that I can understand how it took us all the way to atonement to be able to look back on it because it was, It's kind of a jumbled mess. But in that jumbled mess, watching it for the second time, my theory is that this episode wasn't meant to answer a single thing. This wasn't even necessarily meant to plant seeds that pay off. The purpose of this episode was to get us asking the right questions. It's not a bad thing to do. Exactly. And especially when you think about, and of course he had a different overall arc planned for this, But season one is kind of a contained story within the Babylon 5. We work through the Earth, Minbari, and Sinclair, and Grey Council stuff, which then allows us to go in and start looking at the greater universe stuff in season two with the hints and stuff that come in. So it has us ask those questions. What was it that Delenn planned that he was so freaked out about?

[41:36] What did Sinclair say? Maybe they were right. What were you right about? With me you know what was the thing our souls a thing what how do they work why is a great council ambassador here or great council member here as an ambassador these are the questions that drive so much of the first season so i can watch it now and appreciate it for that and i can see how jms has pride in this episode in the full you know kind of composition of season one specifically and then Babylon 5 in the greater. But on its own, this was still like, it was hard to watch forever. I can see, just kind of to your point, knowing what this is doing, this episode actually is quite brilliant in certain aspects.

[42:25] Not knowing where that goes, not knowing what that is, being in the dark to that and just taking this as a 45-minute chunk of an episode, it comes off as a hot mess. So, yeah, it's a hot mess. It's a hot jumbled what the heck is this. So I can see where people, when they first aired, JMS is so excited to release this to everybody. But he's looking at it through the complete context of the story, whereas everybody else is like, what the F is this, dude? You know, I like I can see that. And you and I were in that same place and our first watch. And now we're looking at it. And you and I both say this is a this is a much more watchable episode because we know where it goes. We know how this fits into the greater world. And you and you have to go through episodes like this, especially in this sort of a deal where you're building the world. You're going to have episodes like this. Sarah over in the chat says that season one of TNG and DS nine have lots of weak episodes. Sarah season season one of Voyager and Enterprise and any any of those 90s sci-fi shows. Stargate had it had them as well. Like you're going to have these weak episodes. And I think, Jeff, you and I and we talked about this a lot, especially early on in the course of the show. We know and understand we've been around the block for a long time. Early season sci-fi, particularly from the 90s, struggles.

[43:46] And you got to get through it to get to the gold and Babylon five gets through it and gets to the gold a whole hell of a lot faster than pretty much every single one of those other shows. Absolutely. Except maybe Stargate. Except Star. I'd say for sure, except Stargate, but it does really well before we jump in. One of the things we're going to talk about here in a second are just things from the lurker's guide that we want to get into. But, uh, Fabio asked a really important question in the, uh, in the chat here. And he says, is this a skippable episode for a first watch? I don't think there are any skippable episodes on a first watch. I agree. They're, they're all necessary in one form or another. Is it a skippable episode on a, on a second watch? Maybe if you know where it is, probably not.

[44:29] Is it skippable on third watches and beyond? Maybe probably, you know, but this definitely should be watched again. I think this whole series is deserving of at least two full complete watches with no skips. When we think about that scene in Atonement with Dukat, Dylan, and Byron all standing there and knowing that it was basically described right here, that's amazing. That's incredible, and it has to be watched. And then to really understand so much of the first season, especially when we get to Battle of the Line and stuff like that, you need this. You need this mystery of, you know, why me? What did you get right? Why were you right about me? You need this. So, you know, I think of our friend from Buzzsprout. this the guy the the big guy big shot guy yeah i forget yeah uh that you told him to watch he started he quit because these early episodes and i gave him a list of like four or five season one episodes like okay watch these and then move on to season two and here's the first couple out of season two you can skip and then from i think i said from um whatever episode 11 is oh coming of shadows from coming to shadows on watch every episode.

[45:34] Every single thing but you know and i gave him those and what i wonder jeff is can you skip those on a first watch okay get through these pieces watch the rest of everything and then come back to these pieces that you've missed so you can now actually like is it are some of these episodes actually a little bit better preserved for after the first time i wonder i don't know we didn't do it that way so i don't know it's not right and my thought is you think about um you know like in his case the show is on trial you know like i i don't know am i gonna watch this am i not gonna watch this and i think it's acceptable to say here's your here's your punch list of the things you need to watch yeah with the knowledge that we all have all of us here have that you're gonna watch the couple and you're gonna get hooked and then you're gonna want to go see the other pieces yeah and and to fabio's thing uh this was not an episode that i included in my list i think the The episodes I included were Born to the Purple, maybe Midnight on the Firing Line, but it was Born to the Purple, I think, Voice in the Wilderness 1 and 2, Babylon Squared, and Chrysalis. Yeah. I think those were the ones that I said you have to, off the top of my head, I think those were it. Like, watch these episodes. You can skip everything else.

[46:44] Yeah. You'll come back around. Oh, Signs of Importance. You got to watch Signs of Importance. That's kind of a big deal one, yes. Yeah. Yeah, that one's a big deal. I would like to take a moment and recognize former council chambers member who we're going to bid adieu to permanently. As Fabio says that TKO is highly skippable, your refund will be processed immediately. It'll take seven to ten days to hit your bank account. We have nothing to do with that. I mentioned it a second ago, but we're in the Lurker's Guide now. Now we, we check this out. And so you and I prepared a little bit and looked at it and wanted to bring a couple of things forward that stood out to us. What are some of the things that, uh, let's back and forth a little bit. What stood out to you overall? Not any one thing particular, but there was this, this vibe that you got when you read through his comments. Yeah.

[47:35] He, he, like he starts with, I'm very excited to see what people think of this episode. I think this is a great episode. I'm very, very high on this episode. And then it came out and people didn't like it. It's very clear. And they had all sorts of criticisms and he got super defensive. I mean, super defensive. Yeah. Especially where everybody's comparing it to star Trek stuff. Like, Oh, you just stole the head thing from the Ferengi. And he's like, he says a lot. Actually, I thought it was great. He goes, he goes, clearly you've been watching too much star Trek and not enough discovery channel that's actually like an aborigine thing it has nothing to do with you know they don't own it just because you saw it there doesn't mean they own it like stop it doesn't mean that's the way it has to be for everybody else out there in the world either so stop it like he's he's very very defensive about a lot of stuff and you know what that's that's kind of what i get i feel like kinship to jms over this i do too i really do because you know you and i took a lot of flack particularly in the early seasons but even even a bit later later on you and i took a lot of flack during our first watch and i also kind of get a little you know you get a little defensive you know people well how do you not understand foreshadowing because i don't know what foreshadowing is right now because i haven't seen it like like i kind of i kind of get.

[48:50] Jms's vibe here like i'm i'm i'm like hey jms high five yeah no no issues for me give them all the guff dude and if jeff and i deserve any of it send it our way we'll take it we'll take it that's that's what i got out of the lurker's guide was jms gets really defensive over his show here and rightly so rightly so yeah well at this point just like our first time viewing when the people who joined us knew the whole story at this point he knows the whole story that's right he couldn't separate see and that's the thing he couldn't separate himself because he was viewing this through the end lens that we're now viewing this through that everybody else has been viewing this through that on your first watch through you're like the hell is this what's going on you know duet and the visitor are not good episodes that's one of my favorite things about beam me up a star podcast yeah is is all the the pole in the tent star trek episodes that your buddy matt was like yeah meh yeah what it's really sacrilege it's really what clued me into the idea of you know know, my first watch maybe wasn't actually so good either. It's just because I've seen this so many times and I'm looking at Kira Norris through the season seven Karen Norris lens and season seven, Dr. Bashir lens, not the season one lens.

[50:07] And there's also this phenomenon of groupthink, you know, everybody, everybody in the Star Trek world says these episodes are great. And you look at me, actually, yeah, they are pretty amazing. Babylon five is, is no different. You know, we would say something and people, well, you just don't get it. And here's what it is. And it would be almost like a cut and paste in every comment. And then eventually I just started asking like.

[50:27] When did JMS say this thing? Oh, you said it right here. Okay, cool. I got it. Everybody heard it. And now everybody just adopts that as their own thing. Got it. That's what happens. And I'm going to say everybody, a lot of people, maybe not everybody, but these are the episodes. Everyone thinks are great. These are the ones everyone thinks are bad. We watched gray 17 is missing. And like people like, Oh God, this one sucks. And was it a top five? No, but it was a good episode. I enjoyed it. It was great. TKO was another one where people hate it. Cause Oh, it's cool. They hate TKO. No, you watch it objectively, which we will hear in a couple of weeks. It's a great episode, but I will for mask and sun. I have a lot of respect for that episode for how they cut it together and what they do with it. Exactly. There's a lot of goofiness in that episode, though. You know, on the out of the lurker's guide, the Star Trek stuff that he had, I had a I had this kind of like, oh, wow, this is a little bit of a pot and kettle situation. He says a quote he has there is we can't constantly be looking over our shoulder limiting our universe because of another show if your only frame of reference when it comes to discussing the soul is star trek then that's profoundly disappointing so when i reframe that a little bit and i say if your only frame of reference for a tv show about a space station is babylon 5.

[51:42] Then you think people ripped people off but we already definitively answered that question So we won't go back. We definitively did it. Anyway, but yeah, that's, that's really what I got out of the Lurker's Guide reading through it really was just that JMS was very, very proud of this episode and apparently highly disappointed when people weren't like on it.

[51:59] And very defensive of it. And I can understand it. I am defending JMS on this one. Well, in that vein, I had one other thing from the Lurker's Guide that, again, I feel a strong kinship with JMS on this. He says, I don't want to spoon feed stuff to people. What I want is not to hit someone with a moral or a message. This is what a soul is. I want to start discussions, arguments, preferably a bar fight or two. We present an issue. Here are the sides. now what do you think about it i want this show to ask this is huge who are you where are you going but what i love about that bren is that's that is the lifeblood of this show right here what is it this episode is posing for us and we have said it so many times they don't answer it they just here's the stuff yeah figure it out and and you know what maybe you're wrong yeah because you and i were like well is this what jms is trying to say versus what are we just kind of drawing out Maybe we're right. Maybe we're wrong. That's okay.

[52:59] That's what JMS, this is what he wanted us talking about. So Jeff, with that, let's talk about it. What messages did you pull out of this episode this time around of soul hunter? Yeah, I really didn't find a lot of messages in this one. I talked about it during the reaction itself. I found the question to debate, you know, what is the nature of the soul, which if we do the sci-fi thing, right, and take this big alien spacey thing and reflect it back in a real little way to us to humanity, what defines a soul? What defines our humanity?

[53:31] What do we leave but what is it that we leave behind all that stuff and again no answer in this whatsoever just here's the question i think it's a great debate to have talked about during the show did you did you find any stuff in this one you know there was a couple things that really stood out to me i'm not actually sure if we picked up on these the first time around but i'll talk about it i've mentioned it several times over the course of this rewatch when we first see the soul hunter and delin finds out who he is delin repeatedly calls him it get rid of it send it away and Sinclair goes, you mean him? And she's like, no, it like, and, and for lack of a better word, she refuses to grant this guy humanity. She refuses to do that and just insist on him being it. I find that incredibly poignant and I don't know quite what I think about it yet, you know, but other than to say when you, cause I've said this for so long through Stargate, I said this a lot through Babylon five, the first time around. And I said this through Stargate, when you strip somebody's humanity away, it's easy to hate them. But when you get to know them, it's not so easy to hate them, even if you don't like them.

[54:39] So there's that one to soul hunter. So he's talking about the, the, the cheater guy, the, the three card money dude balls and cup dude. And how, like when he dies and he just, he's like, he's, he's basically saying like, dude, this guy could have been so much more. Look at him. He's, he's gone. now a soul a life wasted and it's such a shame like i was like the the potential and here's here it is there is a potential in everyone every soul to be the type of a soul that a soul hunter wants to come get and so i think there's a challenge be the kind of a person be the kind of a soul that a soul hunter wants to come after you when you die you know what i mean like i kind of i kind of dig that like be that kind of person yeah i think there's a side of that too not just be that kind of person, but you have the potential to be that kind of person. It's in all of us.

[55:28] It's that's what we do with this time it exists in all of us yeah we we had this discussion during the reaction if you guys didn't watch the reaction please go back and watch the reaction or listen to it if you're if you're on the audio side but you and i had this conversation in the middle of the reaction about how are the soul hunters wrong they're basically zoo keepers they're doing what zoo keepers do are zoos right or wrong well that's a whole different debate that we don't have time for in this particular show but i find that incredible you know it's that everybody's not Not in the same way Bester is the hero of his own story, but the soul hunters are not villains to themselves at all. They're not heroes.

[56:02] They are. And the work that they do is actually really, really important. You know, think about art, archaeologists. Another word for them is grave robbers. Well, we don't rob the grave. We take it and send the stuff to a museum and we'll get paid for it too. But we take it and send it to a museum because, well, wait, there's a reason it was buried the first place. Like, you know, we didn't bury it for you guys in the future. It's for this guy. Yeah. That's what I, that's what I pulled out of this one. Cool. now with that jeff you know we're doing a thing here messages are a thing but the bigger thing the best thing is we are creating the 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking of babylon five season one for the second time currently midnight on the firing line is number one jeff you only got two choices is it above or below midnight on the firing line if i said that i was just going to put it at number two without thinking about it i would be lying like i i had like in my head i'm like this could be number one this does have some bigger stuff than midnight on the firing line had whatever but brendan is going to be number two midnight on the firing line just felt like babylon five um i think as much table setting that soul hunter has done for the series i mean midnight on the firing literally told us the whole series on there so soul hunter is going to be our number two at this time the fact that you even entertained that thought seriously i know speaks to just how much different your second watch was than your first watch.

[57:19] Dramatically different i still don't like it well jeff that's going to do it for us here on soul hunter we get to wrap up this particular one next week we're moving on to the third episode born to the purple jeff what do you remember from your first watch about born to the purple i remember gene simmons and a little hand shock shooter thing and londo falling in love oh is this where we meet lady adira or whatever it is okay yeah okay all right yeah dude what do you remember about it i remember londo up on a table like drunk out of his gourd and falling over i remember that is this the first time we get the statue the minbari statue with all the tentacles that we didn't know what those were i think that's i think it might be parliament of dreams was it okay okay i think that that really is what i remember about this episode and yeah the the lady i mean obviously the lady here is so important to londo's story she she is the driving force behind Londo and in many ways she's the driving force behind Londo's redemption he true I'm really eager to watch this because he is truly in love with this girl we talked about how this was his like moment of you know to be young again to to have that fire to have that energy this is the life I could have had and all all stems from this moment here I'm excited for this one I remember We're liking it a whole bunch.

[58:40] We're going to watch it together right here next week. Once again, thanks for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe, like, rate, review, do all the things. We ask for it every week and we mean it. The best and most important thing you can do if you want to help us out is to share this show with somebody who loves Babylon 5 or wants to see it for the first time or anything like that whatsoever.

[59:02] So I am going to... Hey, Jeff. Yeah, okay. Hey, yeah, what's up? Tore mi vaso, Dorito, Chito, La Dorito, Salsa Verde, Better Than Nacho, Dorito, Jala Peño, Chito.

[59:25] Music. I love that ending. I love that ending. we're going to get better at figuring out how we're going to end this thing same thing I got down to oh god it's empty again did you see me write that note to you like as you were saying.

[59:28] I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.