Survivors | For the Second Time

[0:00] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters until we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and then everything changed. Right now, we're watching this incredible series for the second time, catching all those things that we didn't know were there the first time around. And we're still searching for those sci-fi messages we find in the series. We like to define those as things like giving us hope that things can be better in the future, giving us a mirror to society, or just showing us how people can be better human beings to one another. But one thing we should tell you is that from this point forward, everything is on the table to be discussed. That's right. Anything from any point in Babylon 5, the franchise.

[1:18] Any of the material regarding Babylon 5, we could discuss that at any moment in any part of this episode. So if you are on your first journey, please be warned. This is full of spoilers. The good news for you though, is we have the perfect thing for you to go back, go back and join us on our first watch Babylon five for the first time that is completely full of no spoilers. In fact, our incredible community did such a good job of keeping us in this bubble that Jeff and I really were able to make it all the way through unspoiled. And so can you join us over there. And when you get through that journey, trust me, it's worth it. When you get through that journey, catch up with us over here. They were going to be watching the episode Survivors for the second time. I can remember some of my first thoughts and reactions to this one in a word or like three words. Hated it. Really did not like this episode. You can see standing behind you Major Liana Kemmer, middle name Wooden.

[2:16] Just Just not Not great Do you remember What you thought About this The first time around, I, my, my note that I have here is I was very ho-hum about this episode and I don't know that I really was that ho-hum. I might've really not liked this episode as well. I don't fully remember. I do remember being incredibly intrigued and loving the Garibaldi being an addict storyline. I thought that was new. I thought it was really fresh. I thought it was really refreshing to see representation for an addict in a show and felt like it was being done very, very well. But the guest star in this episode just really tears the whole thing down. And I just remember my impression is everything else in this episode just feels like a bottom barrel, bottom level, 90s sci-fi season one type of an episode. It's not an episode I'm ever going to look to revisit. And even looking back on it now, I still don't want to revisit it. But I can see how it is laying the groundwork for Garibaldi's story later on.

[3:20] And does a lot of established and growth character and all that sort of stuff, as many not great episodes of sci-fi tend to do with their characters. Do you want to know what you actually said? I would love to know what I actually said. So I went back and listened to our first time episode and a couple highlights from that is you said exactly what you just said. This one very much reminds me this is season one of mid-90s sci-fi. Ultimately, I ended up liking Garibaldi a lot more as a result of this episode. You uh you you had two things that kind of cracked me up as a as a veteran babylon five.

[3:54] Enjoyer now these things you said really cracked me up one was i wonder if jms or jerry doyle had any idea that garibaldi was an alcoholic when they came into this like it was just you know the answer to that now though we do exactly the answer is no he didn't and he made him that way because jerry doyle was and here's the thing and this is going to be the craziest thing that that we've got to keep in front of our mind we you and i very much were under the impression that jerry doyle was in recovery yeah as an addict even though he and the truth is he wasn't he was very much in the throes of his addiction yeah from what i understand from jms's autobiography throughout the run of his whole of the whole show pretty much and this is jms and whomever does jms write this episode? I think so. I don't remember. I didn't. Sorry, JMS. Not your best at work, but you're doing it for your boy. And I very much appreciate that.

[4:46] He's writing this, putting these words in Jerry Doyle's mouth. And that's phenomenal to think of it that way. You were very afraid that they were going to mid-90s sci-fi this and just kind of forget about his alcoholism, like get to the end of the episode and we just wouldn't visit it again.

[5:06] Which makes sense. It's a good thing to be worried about, but I'm glad I didn't have to be. Exactly. Was there anything cool in the Lurker's Guide on this one? Not much. No. I don't know that I've seen a Lurker's Guide set of notes that have been as scant as this particular episode. I've got three notes for you, though. Okay. I guess this is in regards to an existing conversation about how they were using CGI with their sets and the stuff. And he says, we've already begun integrating virtual sets with real ones. As an example, in the next to last shot of this episode, someone is entering a ship in the docking bay. And the only real object in that room, aside from the actor is a ladder. Everything else is CGI, but you can't tell. Now I want to put that one to the test. I think that is actually Kimmer getting back into the ship. Okay. At the end of the episode, I want to put that one to the test and I want to see if we can tell how, how much that is. Cause I've got a feeling that on our, on our, even, even on the smaller screen that we're watching here on, on the, our, our app here, I feel like we're probably going to be able to tell, but we'll see. I think so. We'll see.

[6:10] Regarding, regarding him talking about alcoholics, JMS writing for alcoholics. He says, what do I know about alcoholics to portray them? Well, aside from a degree in clinical psychology and some interns from internship ship work in this area. I come from a family with alcoholism going back at least four generations and I'm taking heavy and I'm talking heavy duty alcoholism. I am in fact, the first male Straczynski in my branch of this particular stunted tree, not to have this problem. Stunted tree.

[6:41] We now listen, think about this. This was written back in the nineties. He didn't write becoming Superman until the late teens to the late 2000 teens. And it's interesting knowing that story hearing him say this way back when yeah you know as a point to our thing about louis santiago jms confirms yeah talking about the the earth first talking to the he's like he's louis santiago's playing it both ways that's what he's doing he's playing it both ways playing politics so we were like he got elected to a second term and so once he was elected he's like i'm just gonna do whatever i want yep.

[7:15] Yep. So anyway, that's it, Jeff. That's all I had from JMS. Okay. Well, we'll see what we get in this episode because Brent, it's time. Let's watch this bad boy. Let's get into it. If you're joining us for the first time and you haven't watched our first time reaction or you have not watched the episode, please pause this, leave it on, go do that, come back and then you can watch this because we're going to watch it right here, right now in real time. If you're watching, if you've joined us on YouTube, you're going to see kind of the edited it up reaction style video of this. But if you want the full thing, the unedited version, all the, all the mistakes that we haven't made at all, uh, in this particular, uh, recording and just everything that happens in the whole piece, you can get that at our Patreon page over at patreon.com slash Babylon five first, the number five and the word first. And listen, if you're listening to this on an audio podcasting app, uh, we're going to meet you on the other side where we're going to share our thoughts. We're going to talk about messages and stick around because you two are going to get to hear those reactions, just not necessarily see them. Accessing file. Has the president's staff given us his itinerary yet? I like how they're hanging on to the handrail.

[8:22] Sure, that way they can blame us if something goes wrong. Exactly. Because it's a low gravity area. I hope they're washing their hands. You know what? Right? If you ask me. Somebody's getting a flu out of this. Old damn Luau is a waste of time and money. Well, we are getting a new fighter wing out of this Luau. Cobra Bay Zone. Watch your step, please. Blue Zone, next stop. I wonder if the guy who runs the Cobra Bay Zones is called the Cobra Commander. What the hell? Cobra Bay 12 explosion. Oh, my God. One person flew out. Dude, that person is fully intact. They're in a suit. You're in a suit. Grab a Star Fury. Go get them. You can literally see the oxygen pack. He's fine. Just go get him. I never rule out Sabotage, but those crews are inexperienced, and they've been working around the clock. I really like Sabotage. We're a great band. Until I can do better than a guest, that's... That's a great song. Sinclair. Sabotage. About their sound guy. It's a song about their sound guy. That's nuts. I love it. Security Central. Oh, look at that look on his face. He's like, let's go. I mean, at this point, all we really know about Garibaldi is from that reporter that he's got a 17 years ago, questionable past friend, she was a real sweet kid as chief of presidential security. I have the authority to take over this investigation with or without your permission. Let her have it.

[9:48] The soundtrack's working hard right here. Is this our guy, like Christopher Frank, or whatever his name was?

[9:56] It's having to pick up everything, though, that Kemmer couldn't deliver. What's going on between you and this major? It's personal. 17 years ago, I was working security for the ice mining operation on Europa. I've been trying to uphold the law when nobody cares. After a few weeks, I started drinking hard just to get through the night. Then I met Frank Kemmer. It was a shuttle pilot on a Jovian moon run. Did you see some sunsets? Jovian sunsets. When the job got tough, if I'd spent time with him and his family. That's when I first met Liana. Uncle Mike, she used to call me. With all the madness, it kept me sane and sober for a while. What happened? I was starting to make a dent in the rackets. It got under somebody's skin. Instead of coming at me head-on, they rigged a shuttle pad. Frank was bringing in the last run of the day. Just as he touched down, it blew. I'm sorry. They had it all figured. Pinned it on my negligence. But none of that was as bad as telling Frank's family what had happened. And why? Liana didn't even cry. because she's not capable of expressing emotion just died inside and you i crawl back into the bottle okay here's what i love right because knowing what's coming up they just told us what's happening in the rest of this episode big explosion gets pinned on garibaldi has nowhere to retreat to except the bottle that's the episode let's say we call it good they just told us what's going to happen we don't have to watch the rest mia she died inside because we couldn't get an, They've just explained everything. It's great. Nolan, do you hear me?

[11:24] I'm Major Liana Kemmer. I want to know about the explosion in Cobra Bay 12. No accident.

[11:31] Bomb. Who was behind it, Nolan? Revive Nolan. They'll kill him. Get out of my way. By God, I'll shove you out the nearest airlock. Fine.

[11:43] That was... Okay. I'm still going to be mad about it. Who was behind it? I have your car. Get out of my way. Okay. Go on. That accident was deliberate, Commander, and this man knows who's responsible. Who planted the bomb? It was. It got a ball deer. I remember even back then going, bullshit. Yeah. Like, you just used your last breath to frame somebody. Come on, dude. Now cue the episode where all right now we got to place garibaldi under arrest because what this one dude said why would a dying man no i busted him a few months ago for trash in an alien shop he had it in for me go and our initial scans show no trace of a bomb night of the president's arrival i will assume command of security in his place oh give me a break will you presidential authority gives me their right commander i don't care if you have the right or not you're not doing this yeah go away is this the first station i say is this the first earth force person who comes on who's just like clearly evil i mean she's not but like the way she's you know she's overstepping everything like is and see that's what i feel like like your security authorization like this is where sinclair needs to be like yeah here's why that's not gonna work although the right move for garibaldi is to remove himself from this investigation right yeah like the fact he just handed his stuff over and went that's that's good here you go here's my gear i'll be in my quarters.

[13:07] Sorry, Chief. You got Lou? You got a space happy Lou? That's Lou. It's under seizure. I forgot all about Lou. I didn't forget all about Lou. That's it. Remember Lou. No, no, no, no. Forget Byron. F Byron. Remember Lou. Remember Lou. That's the guy we need to remember. Go find out what the scanning team has turned up. Next time, Garibaldi. Welch. The scan showed traces of C-15 and the burn residues, and Shang found schematics of the Cobra Bay. If I were guilty, why would I leave the evidence in my own quarters? Maybe you just made another mistake, just like you did 17 years ago. Mr. Cutter, take Mr. Garibaldi. And, and, by the way, the correct move would be for Liana to remove herself, given her personal nature. With Garibaldi. To accuse herself. It's always the smartest thing to do, you know, when you're being falsely accused of something, is to just run away. I have hard evidence that Garibaldi is part of this sabotage. I want him in custody before the president arrives. This is my station, and it's time you realize that. Lieutenant Commander Ivanova, escort Major Kemmer off the observation dome. With pleasure. You are going to resist, I hope. Great Ivanova line. The look on her face. Uh-huh.

[14:15] I really want, she really needed to walk around. To do what? Find Garibaldi before Kemmer and her hounds do. I gotta say, I'm not, like, so bad on Kemmer's acting, so it's not great. That opening scene, but everything else has been very, but it's been very, she's a monotone character so far. She is, but also they literally explained that, you know, she suppressed it all when her dad died. Like they gave a reason for it. And she's very military at this point, just very by the book. Well, you know, we gave Sinclair a second chance, so. So maybe. Someone's trying to frame me for the explosion in the Cobra Bay. I planted a schematic of the bay and a pouch of Centauri ducats in my quarters. Two cots, actually.

[14:58] Mr. Carapaldi, do you really think that I would do such a thing to you, my good and dear friend? In a minute. You're right. But I didn't. Though I may have an idea who did. I got to tell you, Jeff, nothing in this world will ever replace me hearing Peter Juricic say, Brent, my dear and good friend. Yeah.

[15:23] That's such a cool feeling, man. That was incredible. Hearing him say that and that voice, oh, my word. Thank you to everybody who participated in making that happen. That just warms my heart. probably jeff that's a that's a top two offline oh i bet journey we wouldn't want the president to be out of touch when he gets here i demand you open a channel to earth at once i'm a lieutenant commander in earth force major i do not take demands if you have a request i'll consider it very well then i request see this is how sinclair should be responding to kimmer the entire time the whole time yeah ivanova's got it yeah or he just needs to step aside and let ivanova take They are doing everything they can to protect Garibaldi. No surprise. According to our files, they're about his only friends. Them and the Centauri ambassador. So how would Jakar get his hands on a load of Centauri ducats? You could ask him yourself, except, however, getting into the ambassadorial wing requires high-level clearance, which I believe you no longer have.

[16:24] 500 Centauri ducats. That should buy you whatever you need. You're being awfully generous. Any particular reason? You're a very suspicious man, Garibaldi. But yes, there is a reason. One day I'm going to come to you and you do a favor. He's also the first done, though. You're all right, Londo. If they catch you, I will deny. It's the first time we've seen him sit down and have just a buddy conversation sort of thing. They only have like three in the whole series. But they're big. Especially in the deconstruction of Lon.

[16:54] Music.

[17:00] We've locked horns before. Maybe you saw this as a chance to even the score. Granted, it's not a bad idea, but I didn't think of it. And I didn't do it. Every Centauri ducat that Molari's people contributed to the non-government has been accounted for. Oh, you could serve us in any number of ways. Analyst, security expert, cryptographer. You want me to betray my own world? Without your position, this station is not safe for you. You have made many enemies. Call it a lifestyle. It's what I do. Make enemies watch Duck Dodgers. It's fun how they become such close friends. You know, like their whole thing. Welcome to Babylon 5. Jeff, are you bored? Yeah, I am. Me too. Can this episode hurry up? People likely notice that if they're on YouTube it's going to skip ahead like half an hour because we're just not pausing and talking about anything.

[17:52] This didn't even have to happen. Like if he hadn't run off you know I don't know. Yeah, Nia in the chat. Frankie putting in the work. For real, he's carrying this episode. I like how we have Chekhov's petty criminal from earlier. Let's do it. All right, so what do we got here? We got Drazi and Burkiri. Why is it those are the two that are always getting it mixed up? You know, they're always looking for somebody to beat up. Dude this would be a great place for sword wielding jakar to come in yes you know what i mean jump down uh-huh good how freaking long are they just gonna keep doing this like my god this is literally an 18 minute long episode they're stretching so much stretch i'm just i'm i'm just entertaining I'm hitting myself over here right now, Jeff. Thanks, pal. No want hat? Take bottle. This is where it all starts to fall apart. I go casino. Garibaldi giving Yelp's first review. This is actually where the word Yelp came from. Right. Top side.

[19:08] Well, boys and girls, it's been us. Dude, we still have that kind of a lamp. I know. I was waiting outside the bar for you. Commander St. Clair ordered me to search Nolan's quarters. I found these. Do you think he's of the Welch's grape family? I do, actually. And the pamphlets? They're home guard stuff. Oh, home guard. We had a little trouble with them a while back. Because in 2187, if you'll remember, there was the Welch's grape plague that occurred that wiped out the vineyards. A bunch of people got real sick. They fell from grace. And so here he is, 80 years later, he has no choice but to get a security job. I mean, that's what happened to my family from way back in the day.

[19:55] That's why we have castles all over Europe. They're just owned by other people. They're just other people who got them. Yeah. I mean, and it sucks, too. Like, all the security briefings and stuff, people, like, make jokes about it, and they're like, hey, we got some grape juice. Ha, ha, ha. And Lou's like, God, that just hurts so bad. The untold story of Lou Welch. Only cleared it up.

[20:13] Ben says that whatever we see, Santiago, he's only in stills, and it's actually Doug Netter. It is him. Is it? It is, yeah. Did you know that? I didn't know that. That's fun. Read that somewhere. He didn't know they'd be using a plasma driver in the bay. He created just enough vibration to trigger the bomb prematurely. it's a possibility but what about motive president baby they say the president is going to announce free or alien immigration and trade policies uh general netter wants to know if all is secure make sure all our people are in place and tell general netter i wonder if there was a bet as to how many times they could say netter in an episode you're still a suspect garibaldi that you know he did say something in the lurker's guide about that like they kind of went in on it like as a joke and they had to really pull it back otherwise it would just become obnoxious it's right up it's i'd like to believe it's getting there but this supposition of yours doesn't explain how that evidence got in your quarters nobody knew nolan had named you except you me dr franklin and commander sinclair and cutter who was there just when the evidence against me was found cutter is one of our best his name is cutter liana come on well did you not see him he went to get out of my way okay yourself you see his haircut for god's sake right he's a worse actor than you are like come on be smart cutter you can't pull this off i already have.

[21:34] Garibaldi yes i can i'm gonna take my eyes off of you while holding my hand up.

[21:43] Did you see what did you see what garibaldi did he full-on did the karate kid Yeah! Crane technique! Crane technique. No can defense. Ivanova, abort the draw! Ivanova? What? Abort the draw! Ivanova! Who's the wise guy? Ivanova! Stop it! Ivanova!

[22:08] Why didn't she do that, like, six counts ago? How you feeling? Like I just made love to a meteor shower. Don't let him con you, Commander. He may not look pretty, but... Kink life looks a lot different in the late 23rd century. We found charges on all the bay doors. If they had opened, we would have lost the whole wing and half the station with it. We also checked on Cutter. Seems someone on Earth deposited 100,000 credits into an account in his name an hour after Nolan named you. He withdrew it here and centauri ducats which you planted in my quarters very smooth but not smooth enough michael oh this is gonna be the scene i think everything going all right with the president's visit yes thanks to you the president's even talking about citations for all concerned oh look now her hair is all out on my own turf you might just have a career in this game i wasn't out for justice i was out for blood you know this is not a bad acting gig right here from her i agree i agree like like i get i get it earlier she's she's bottled up and she's whatever and she's trying to get that out but 17 years ago there was there's nothing been nothing about her this whole episode that has been in charge commander we can do head of security survive and like like she could even come close to standing toe-to-toe with michael garibaldi Right? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not been there.

[23:30] Camera here. She's like a little girl playing in a suit that's too big for her is what it's felt like so far. We've got to get set up for the president's next stop. I'll see you the next time the president visits. Yeah, Katerina says the hair is kind of the indication that she's a little more relaxed now and stuff like that. Absolutely, Katerina. I think that's exactly what that's. I picked up on that. I just wasn't trying to dive into it. But, yeah, I think that's exactly what that is. I'm glad she didn't kiss him there yeah this could have gone this could have gone a really rough direction well she's an adult now, Yeah, I was going to say, I don't care if she's adult or not. Michael should never, ever see her as anything other than that little girl. Yeah. She's your buddy's little girl. Huh? That right there. That's it right there. The latter is the only... Her and the latter are the only real thing. Everything else is CGI. That looked great. It really did. You know what? That looked great. It really does look good. I'm so glad you didn't screw up that right now. I know.

[24:27] Look at that. He's right. You can't tell. It's the latter and the actor. Everything else is CGI. Looks really good. That looks really good. That might be the best CG in the whole episode. Outside of the station, yeah. Yeah. I'm still going to say about that station looking so good. Well, Brent, we just got through Survivors for the second time, surprisingly. I didn't know if we were going to make it. What do you got? What a long episode. It really was. What a long episode. I mean, I feel about this exactly as I felt before. You know um i think we could have a whole discussion based on addict life and what that is, um but we've already had that conversation we had it the first time around so i don't necessarily feel the need to rehash it all here um i i will say one thing that i absolutely loved though in this episode um was the way that sinclair treated garibaldi at the end yeah you You know, he, he did not sit in judgment of Garibaldi after he, he fell off the wagon. He spoke truth to him and he let Garibaldi be where he was and called him up to be better, you know, and showed Garibaldi who he really is, which is not, which is not somebody who lives inside the bottle, but somebody who lives outside of the bottle.

[25:46] And, and I really, really loved it outside of that. I mean, yeah, it's just an episode. I don't need to watch very often at all. If ever I do, I do. I think I've softened a little bit on the actress's job of Leanna Kimmer in this, just understanding the growth of her character from the beginning of the episode to the end of the episode, seeing that a little bit better right now as represented by her hair. I mean, look at the picture of her over my shoulder here for the audio folks who aren't, who are not seeing this. It is an image of her from the very beginning of the episode. I think it's right when we first meet her and they walk in the room, her hair is tight and pulled back behind her head and her squares, her shoulders are squared and her chin is up and all that sort of stuff. Versus at the end, when everything's down and her hair is styled and crumpled and all that, like that just represents the growth of her character from the beginning to the end and the softening of her towards Michael Garibaldi at the end. And, um, I I've softened on that a little bit with her. I think, I think we saw that she does, she does act. She doesn't know how to act or she can't act as she did there at the end. Um, but I just not, I'm not, yeah, man, I feel I'm the same way. You know, I can't say I hate this episode, but I don't like this episode at all. How about you, Jeff?

[27:00] Um, I will say, uh, that I'm in a similar spot to you with, uh, Kemmer's acting. I think it was fine, actually. Given that they kind of explained that out a little bit, and at first I was being facetious about, oh, they actually told us. But they actually did. And that was actually the story was her working through that stuff and then being like, it is actually okay, Michael. I can grieve now.

[27:27] If Star Trek Discovery did this episode, 32 minutes of it would have been her crying when she finally had the emotional release that she'd been holding on. since Europa.

[27:40] Which wouldn't have been bad. And I also want to say that, like just again, like you, I fricking, I fricking love Sinclair. Like I just, there's so many, who would have thought we'd be saying that. I know. Going into the second, the second one. 100%. I'm like, we're going to do the second time and I'm going to be lighter on him because I understand what's going on, but I'm not going to like him or whatever. He's fricking amazing.

[28:02] The character is great. The acting is like we talked about last time. Like it's adequate. If a couple of moments are actually great, i think he's good not great as an actor yeah you know what i mean like i michael hair is very good as an actor there's a reason he got this job and he and he does pull off a lot of who sinclair is supposed to be but you know again i go back to what i don't remember what episode it was it was several weeks ago now jeff where we're talking about like we just never got connected to sinclair and it wasn't like episode five six seven eight somewhere in there where we're like now we have a connection to this guy yeah where we where we get him and we understand them and and it should have happened a lot sooner it should have but like he was awesome in this episode other than that dude i was bored out of my mind this was me too i don't want to say this was a god-awful episode but this was not a good episode when we watched it the first time we said that it accomplished what it set out to do but now i'm like i don't know that it really did because i think what it set out to do was give some complexity to the character of michael garibaldi and then kind of move us closer to it making sense when earth force one gets blowed up and saniago gets assassinated right.

[29:15] Freaking a man that it would have taken eight minutes to do those two things and yeah uh not great we didn't talk about it during the episode did you get any messages in this thing i mean again we could we could really discuss the whole addict thing and there's a lot there's a lot there to chew on. But here's the thing. This is an incomplete story right now. Because you and I both know where Garibaldi and the story of Garibaldi goes, particularly in season five. But yeah, it's just too early to really dive into it and really discuss it because other episodes have this discussion about being an addict so much better later on. I think the best thing, if I could pull anything out of it is be careful where you place your guilt or.

[30:05] Whether it's on yourself or somebody else, Garibaldi was holding guilt on himself. Camera was holding guilt on Garibaldi. Yeah. And it belonged to neither. It belonged to neither. Although the object was Garibaldi in both situations, but they both had their, had the guilt misplaced. Um, I think we could talk about that. Um, you could pull that as a message really, uh, what it means to always be on the side of, of whom you consider family, whether that's the family you choose or the family you don't choose. You know, to stick by and stand up for your family, you know.

[30:41] I think there's maybe something for that, although that's not a ubiquitous message that should be followed without reservation, you know. A lot of shades of gray there for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, yeah, I don't really have a whole lot there, Jeff. Did you pick up anything? I think feel your feelings. Oh, yeah, there you go. You know, when Kemmer, we first meet Kemmer, she's suppressing everything. And I think they actually described that really well, how that happened when she was young. And she sucked when she was doing that. She was a jerk. She wasn't open to hearing anything. And then when her great egg was cracked and the feelings started to escape, not her soul, but the feelings, she softened up. And, oh, gosh, someone said it over here in the council chambers chat. I can't see it right now, but they're like, uh, Kemmer's hair did the, had the strong, the biggest acting lift in this episode, but it kind of did. Like we saw her as a different person because she let herself feel the feelings. Right. Oh yeah. Suzanne says that. I was, yeah. I actually, I did think of one more message while you were talking there, Jeff. Yeah. And that's this, uh, always have somebody who's really good at composing a score for real. Yes.

[31:57] That's, that's a message for the episode. Yeah. It wasn't her hair. It was Christopher Frankie who had the best ending. Right. This is like, oh, man. Well, Brett, let's shift to something a little more fun, maybe, hopefully. This week, you have the honors. We're creating the definitive ranking of all these episodes. And as of today, we have a top 10. We're going to have a top 11 at the end of this one.

[32:21] I'm going to count down from in the middle on this one. And we'll see where it lands. I'm going to start at number eight is Mind War. Number seven, Midnight on the Firing Line. Six is Born to the Purple. And number five is Parliament of Dreams. Number four is last week's Believers. Brent, where are you going to put Survivors? Well, just to round out the bottom of that, number nine is Infection and ten is Soul Hunter. It is not going to crack any of those that you just discussed. Okay, wow. I mean, Mind War is sitting at number eight. And I'll watch Mind War over this episode any day of the week. Any day. Any day.

[32:59] I like Midnight on the Firing Line. I think it's a good episode. Board of the Purple is so funny. Such a good episode. So, yeah, I'm not placing this up there in that echelon. The question is, is it better or worse than Infection and or Soul Hunter? Here's the thing. It might be not. Yeah, I'd say it might not be. you know in this in this watch yours and mine's opinion of both soul hunter and infection went up a little bit from the last time i don't think our opinions of this episode went up at all no maybe even went down a little bit the episode or they were just or we just doubled down on where we feel like i feel like they are here's the thing would i watch infection again before watching this episode and the answer is yes i would i really would because oh my god this episode what i watch it what i watch soul hunter again before watching this episode jeff i would yeah this is our new number 11 all the way at the bottom and i'm a little shocked to say that although i do seem to remember this being in that that batch of episodes down at the bottom where i kind of always say hey throw them all in a bag shake them up and pull one out and that's the right order you're going to be in because none of them are great but if i had to that's this is where i'm going to place it number 11 so in our definitive ranking at the end of the first time viewing And Soul Hunter was 23 years.

[34:22] Infection was 22, and Survivors was 17, between Midnight on the Firing Line and A Voice in the Wilderness Part 1. What? Wow. Yeah, Mind War was number 20. Is this the first episode we've had, then, where our opinion of it has gone down? I think so. On a second view? Because I've got to tell you, I've seen some of these comments from our council chambers. I think it was Ben. Yeah, Ben over here, he says, overall, I'd say this is the most season one episode that ever season one'd. Yeah, yeah. You know, Becky says, I'm right there with you. Put this in a bag with Soul Hunter and whichever one you grab out first is the worst.

[34:58] Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I feel like I'm in good company. I feel like we are in good company there, Jeff, when we really throw this one all the way down at the bottom. And, wow, what were we thinking in that first? You know what it was? It was because by the time we ranked this one, we were so far removed from it. So it was almost unfair. fair or or you know probably really what it was was we were we were giving it that season one pass okay yeah yeah you know what i mean because you and i are very hey listen season one sci-fi is not really good we'll give it a pass you know uh i would i would venture to say that was a benefit of the pass from that so i think that's fair that's gonna wrap up survivors for us next week we're gonna watch by any means necessary do you brent remember your prediction for this one you know jeff i don't no no but here's what i know you listened to our last episode and so you do know what was my prediction for the next episode well i'm going to say mine first and then i have yours written down word for word word for word okay i want to hear it so mine.

[36:06] This will be another home guard episode, but we're going to see an organized alien resistance pushing back against them. This is by any means necessary. By any means necessary. Okay, I'm sorry. This is the dock worker strike episode, right? Yes, that's correct. Where we get the little schmoozy strike breaker guy that comes in and all that sort of stuff. We're also. Oh, and this is where we get the really cool Sinclair solution. Yes. That I love. Oh, I love that. We also get the Londo Jakar, Jaquaneth thing going on.

[36:35] This one? I think so. I think it is that one. Yeah. Okay, great. We get this meme from Londo where he's waving his fingers. It'll be fun after this one. So your prediction. Oh, mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, word for word. I have no idea.

[36:49] Really? That's what I said? That's what you said. I have no idea. Okay. Okay. I'll take it. Which is a pretty safe way of doing it, I think. Right, right. Man. Cool. I think we're both looking forward to watching this one next week. Thanks for hanging out with us here this week. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're watching or listening to us. Leave us a rating, a review. Share this show with somebody. Let's get more eyes on it and let people enjoy Babylon 5 for the first, second, and maybe even 47th time. So with that, I'm going to wrap up. Hey, Jeff. Yes, Brent. What is up? Hey, I found the 100,000 credits. The ducats? The ducats. No, ducats. No, you mean the Ducats. Ducats. Ducats. It's Ducat.

[37:46] Ducat it. Ducat. Ducat. Fold it up, put it sideways, and Ducat. D-U-Cat. Ducat, it's Ducat. Ducat. Oh, wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry. Yeah, I know. do cat, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something it is duck it and that was that was a very does a very jacksonville thing to say thank you for making up on that.