The Long Road

[0:00] So what is to be gained by fighting? Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot. I'd like to be the one to make that decision.

[0:06] Music. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the first time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin. And I'm Brent Allen. Alan, Jeff and I were two veteran Star Trek podcasters, nerds, who decided that we should watch Babylon 5 for the first time because some people said that it was good. And you know what happened? We fell so much in love with the series that we're now continuing that journey with Crusade for the first time. And just like always, we're going to be searching for the deep, hidden, maybe not so hidden messages that we find in the series. But don't worry. Those are not Star Trek messages. They're sci-fi messages. Brent, this is not a Star Trek podcast. And to reinforce that fact, we're going to keep our long-running game, The Rule of Three. It's a game that limits us together a total of no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. One of those three. No substitutions, exchanges, or refunds. And Jeff, what happens if we happen to make one of those references on accident or on purpose? You're going to hear this. It's the most pleasing of sounds ever. That's a piece of feedback we get a lot. People love when we hit that button. Yes, they do. They love it.

[0:10] I want you to know that this thing just made a very large dent in my ship. The year is 2024.

[1:35] Hey, Brent. Hey, Jeff. You know what we have? We've got a five-star review. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And this one's from just a few days ago on Podchaser. Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter says, I really enjoy the hosts guessing what's going to happen next time, both when it's so spot on it's eerie and also when it's off the mark because it's proof they haven't seen it before. Also, now in the middle of Season 4, I had to review and had to say thanks for the recap on moments of transition. I loved it. Okay, remind me which episode that one was. Do you know? Moments of Transition? Yes, come on, one who was. I know. I think that might be the one.

[2:21] I'll tell you what I thought it was. I thought it was the one that had the drock in it for the first time, the drock, but I realized that it was not that one.

[2:30] Regardless, we should look that up. But what was the name again? That was Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. Hey, Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter. uh one thank you so much for joining us um we actually had a message from one of our people on patreon just saying how cool it was uh it was trey messages jeff who was like hey how cool is it that people are still discovering your show for the first time backing all the way up and like they're in their run right now and that actually that's really super cool because we get messages like this they were like that feels like a long time ago to us now i know you know i can't remember what that particular episode was but uh that's super cool and so thanks for leaving that review and dropping that in and uh yeah you know as far as the um the predictions and getting them wrong you and i were also told at one point that we're really bad actors and so like we couldn't fake them out if we if we wanted to and well you know yeah that's as far as i'm i'm not i'm neither they're going to confirm or deny that particular rumor. We'll just say you've seen them. Do your own math. That's right. Jeff, you know how much we love reviews? A lot. You know how much we love doing the game, The Rule of Three? A lot. Well, you know something else we love a lot? Would that be the guessing game? The guessing game that Sunshine 1, 2, 3, Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter was just talking about where at the end of the show, we play a game where we try to guess what next episode is going to be about out based on title alone.

[3:59] Well, Jeff, this is the part of the show where we revisit that, that prediction just to see how close we got to it. So Jeff, what did you think the long road was going to be about and how close do we think you are? Yeah, I was almost as far off as you could be with one tiny little, like little sliver of exception. I thought this was going to be. Uh, the nerds, all the ists, all the doctors and stuff coming together to plan and do the thing to, well, here's the long road to figure the thing out to find a thing that could be the cure, which is a thing they kind of sort of did in this one. But I will share, and I talked about this in my reaction, but I made a fundamental flaw in making this prediction. I'm going to do a better job with in the future. I approached this like this was a serialized show like Babylon five. Like we met the crew now we need to set the stage and move forward moving forward from here for us i'm going to approach this more like stargate where yeah here's some episodes that are connected and they're also just kind of one-off so expect some better predictions from aiken moving forward.

[5:06] We're aching for better predictions what did you think it was going to be about you know i said that it was going to be a very literal show title. And I did. I thought it was going to be very literal. I thought the long road was going to be like the name of a section of space. It's its nickname. And it's going to be like this really dark and dangerous and tricky place. Space is dark. But it's going to be dangerous and tricky. A real weird place to get through. They've got to get somewhere. And in order to get there, they have to go through the long road in order to get there. And that is not at all what this episode was about not even close no not even a little bit but you know what will help us all get closer to understanding what it was about brent is you enlightening us and reminding us, what this episode the long road is all about well it's just another day on board the good old eas excalibur with with apparently not much to do on this particular tuesday why is it a tuesday day. I don't know. Seems like it's any other day on the ship where they're not doing whatever it is they're supposed to actually be doing. And Captain Gideon, along with a few extras, are getting in some precious gym time. And boy, does he need it because his shot is awful. But that's when he receives word that the EAS Medusa, which is stationed at Regula 4, needs some help. They're out there mining a mineral that only exists on that planet. And this precious mineral.

[6:35] Will actually help to extend the lives of everyone on Earth suffering from this plague, which is really good because they need all the time they can get. I don't know if it's really going to cure it, but it's really going to help a lot. But it seems like they're having trouble with the locals, what basically amounts to small, terroristic-type incidents.

[6:51] But they're backwards farmer, hayseed-type folk, and they're really not that much of a threat, so this should be an easy one. And besides, Gideon's always willing to lend a hand. When they arrive, Gideon meets with his counterpart on the Medusa, Captain Talon, I mean, Captain Daniels, but he must be drunk because he keeps going on and on about a golden dragon and a bunch of other stuff that makes no sense whatsoever, except it just so happens to pique the curiosity of Galen, who for some reason has traveled along with Gideon and gets to be on and gets to be in on this conversation. It's pretty clear that Galen knows exactly what's up, so he invites himself down to the planet with Gideon. They suit up. Gideon puts on some local attire reads a handbook of the local dialect and accent and away they go down on the planet a tumbleweed blows across the dust covered street the doors of the local saloon swing open and in walks john wayne gideon cowboy hat trench coat boots and i swear he was even wearing spurs they're being stared down by all the patrons but that's no problem he goes over to the bar Bar orders a couple of toonies, tries to pay for it with a little bit of gold he has that, oh, could actually buy the entire bar.

[8:10] Yeah, sorry, Gideon, I'm not so sure that the barkeep keeps that kind of change lying around. Later that night, Gideon and Galen have just, that should be the name of a band, Jeff. Gideon and Galen. Gideon and Galen. Later that night, Gideon and Galen have just shut down the joint. Gideon's growing impatient as Galen is waiting for, for what exactly? Well, for anything. Something to happen because something always happens and right on cue the saloon doors blow open again and it's the town folk pitchforks torches mean mugs all around the whole shebang they don't like these outsiders and they don't like these two and they want them out of here but just before the fisticuffs come out galen's smirk has paid off when the saloon doors blow Blow open one more time. Wind and leaves, flashes of light mark the grand entrance of none other than Obi-Wan Kenobi. Or is it Gandalf the Black? Or whatever. Standing there, telling the folk not to hurt these two. They're here for him. He invited them, which just confuses the hell out of Gideon. But the town folk buy it, and they leave. This guy, he's Brother Alwyn. I'm sorry, wait, let me check my notes. Nope, sorry, just Alwyn. Just Alwyn. You see, he's also a Technomage, just like Galen. They know each other from way back.

[9:36] Truthfully, they know each other from way, way back. We'll get into that one later. Alwyn is much older than Galen and somewhat wiser as well. He gives us a little history lesson on the Technomages, and he laments that they have lost their way. They're supposed to be there to help people, not go into hiding when they're needed the most he explains to gideon that it's been him doing all these shenanigans trying to get the medusa to leave and not come back this mining it's disrupting everything on the planet and when the mining is done they're going to leave but these people are going to wind up starving but the people back home gideon says but the people right here alwyn says and alwyn is determined to help them even with his fun hollow projected golden dragon.

[10:21] Holy crap, that thing is real? No, didn't you hear me? It's just a hollow projection. Well, eventually, push comes to shove. Alwyn just can't get the Medusa to leave, even with Gideon really on his side now. So he has to ramp it up. But before he can do much, the town folk get together. They kidnap and hold hostage the miners. Alwyn chases them down and chastises his own people. This isn't who you are. Don't lose your way by becoming something that you're not but they're pretty insistent so he's just gonna have to do what he has to do and the consequences will be on their heads he heads out to take on the medusa one-on-one he goes to the mine and begins to use his magic destroying the mining operation and the medusa in the process, well the medusa can't let that be and honestly truthfully neither can gideon so gideon orders the big honking main gun on the Excalibur to be fired directly at Alwyn, vaporizing him instantly.

[11:26] And destroying the mining complex. Well, with him gone and the mining complex gone, the Medusa and the miners and the town folk all come together. Captain Daniels finally has a sit down to discuss the situation, and they actually all agree that they can work together and find a win-win solution for everyone, which really is what this should have done in the first place. And as for Galen, well, he goes to meet Alwyn out in the woods. Of course, Alwyn didn't really die. It was all part of the ruse. He's a techno mage, remember? But the town folk don't get to know the truth. And their consequence is that they must go on without his help and his protection. But maybe it's for the best, after all. All one heads out and leaves Galen with some good old-fashioned pondering to do about his role as a techno mage.

[12:15] Jeff, what did you think of The Long Road? I loved this episode. I absolutely loved it. This was so great. Not to steal your thunder for later on but this was more star trek than most star trek is it's the first time i was like well first time we've only seen two episodes but it's like oh this is this one has a star trek feel to it in a very big way it was just overflowing with messages in an episode that really every sci-fi franchise does i was immediately taken back to stargate sg1 spirits spirits, where they went onto the planet. I forget what the mineral was they found there, but they're like, yeah, we're just going to take it because we can. So many, this is done in so many places. This one was done amazingly. I loved it. Flipped a lot of the things that we expect on its head, on their heads, just looked at it in a very different way and examined it in a way that I thought was brilliant and just really well put together. And the techno mages, Brent, they're We've seen two now. Well, three if we count Elric, who got a name drop in this, which was pretty cool. I mean, we did see the council of techno mages, but they didn't really do much while we were watching them. But they're everything I wish they could be. Alwin was hardcore. He was wise.

[13:37] Just almost too full of himself. He just had that confidence that borders on and sometimes is arrogance. Against but you know he's a fluffy old man how could you you know how could you hold that against him he reminded me of brother theo it's like if you had brother theo and gave him magic you get out one and i loved seeing talon as a bad guy yeah i love this episode brent it was perfect, Almost. What did you think of it? Jeff, I'm going to quote you in a way that I have heard you often refer to our Stargate episodes. If you guys want to know what that is, go over and check out our show Stargate SG1 for the first time. You get it right here on the Babylon 5 for the first time channel. A different audio feed if you're an audio listener, but YouTube all in one place. Jeff, what a great episode.

[14:29] I loved this episode. I love this. I love this. I love this. I loved it through and through. This was a Western episode. It was a Western. I loved it. I don't even like Westerns that much, but I loved this episode. You know, Star Trek Discovery did this with their second episode of season three, and I loved that one, too. I think I like this one even better, though. Just like you said, we got everything we needed about the techno mages, and it's about dang time. It is about I know there's the novels out there. Maybe we'll get to those one day. Maybe we won't but it is about time that we got some more techno mage stuff this one this is an episode it was exciting it was thought-provoking it was it was well told as a story i mean this is easily your typical sci-fi episode that you're going to see in season four season five of a series when the show is clicking on all cylinders you know what i mean like you're going to see it there it's that level of a show allwin is one of those characters you just want one of in your life. We all need an all one. We need a rabbi Koslav and we need an all one. Like you just, you need these types of people, these kind of sage people who can slap you around a little bit.

[15:40] You know, you still kind of got to be a little scared of because they might be a little crazy. You know what I mean? Like I, I loved this episode and Jeff, I'm going to tell you, this one is an early running for my favorite episode of all 13 of the crusade episodes. I can tell you right now, it's, it's going to be in there, going to be in there. I don't even know where to start with this one. Oh, well, let's start with the Western episode. I'm going to start at the opening credits of this show. Okay. Okay. Take it. So I watched the opening credits again this week, just like I did last week, but I saw something this time that i missed last time what's that there there was a shot in the opening credits where gideon's wearing a cowboy hat and he's wearing the trench coat and i said i was like are we gonna get a western episode imagine my surprise when it turned out to be this episode i was like yeah not at all what i expected in a western episode but no but same i i noticed let's talk about the opening credits just for a minute because i noticed a thing as well two things one One is the, I'm a little older than you, and this might be not quite your time, but in the late 90s, there were these anti-drug commercial things that came up, and they had this font that flashed up on the screen. And I forget what they said, but I feel like it's the exact same font they use with the Galen lines.

[17:01] What do you want? Like, the font was almost, it totally took me back to that moment. Yeah. but the brilliance of the opening credits I found is they go through his questions, right? And we hear the answers that Gideon gave in war zone, except we get to who do you serve and who do you trust? And there's nothing right. But there is, who do you serve and who do you trust? And then it shows the cast.

[17:22] It's like, here's who I serve and who I trust. Then it gets to the end and it times out perfectly. Who do you serve? Who do you trust? Boom. J. Michael Straczynski pops up on the screen. I was like, I like that. I was like, Oh, that, That is intentional. They totally did that on purpose. I like that. Talk about the basketball court in the gym for a minute. Yeah. Let's.

[17:46] Yeah, let's do it. Well, you wanted to talk about one of the extras. I kind of, on the video, I gave that away. But let's talk about the boxer that was there. The Taibo, the person doing Taibo in the corner. Jeff, I stopped it, and I rewound it, and I watched it again. She just, honey, that's not a workout. That's just. Her face didn't even change. I'm sorry for the audio folks who are listening to this. You have no idea what I was just punching the camera very slowly. You weren't punching. You were extending your arms. Yes, yes. I was certainly not making contact, just like the lady in the episode. But what was so funny, though, was like, was it Galen that walked in? No, it was Matheson. Matheson walks in. Yeah, yeah, Matheson. And it's all crowded when he's walking in, and there's Boxing Lady doing her thing. And then we see Gideon with the future basketball key. You can tell it's the future because it's angled, right? It's not just, you know, a rectangle. It's height. Oh, yeah, yeah. And we get this shot of him, like, from the basket on Gideon. And that gym went back about 16 miles of just open space with that. Or it went back like six feet with a hell of a green screen.

[19:04] I cracked up so much. I'm just like, and I'm like, is this on the ship? How big is this? Is this Jim? Literally that whole long part of the Excalibur, the whole thing. And I'm also super curious. Did they get tell him to miss so he could do the whole with my control? It's the controller controller sucks. Yeah. Thing. Or is Gary Cole just that bad at basketball? I'm going to say that it was on purpose because I got to tell you, my first thought when I I saw that basket was it completely looked like one of those like rigged carnival game baskets where you're trying to make it and just bouncing it back out. But he starts blaming the basket like, no, dude, you just suck. You just suck at this. Yeah, that was quite the scene. Sure. Blame the hoop. Blame the hoop. Jeff, right prior to going to credits, we saw the eyeball and I think we saw. Is that when we saw the dragon? That's what we learned was the dragon. Dragon what did you think when you saw a literal dragon well before i saw the drag because you see the eye right looking at it i thought it was one of the droc space masks and like they like miniaturized the shuttle or something and we're looking at it and then when it turned out to be the dragon we don't generally watch each other's reaction videos so we don't know so i've had a thing now in both episodes the logo for crusade right and like if you're watching it's right here You can see it.

[20:32] It feels so fantasy. It's not a sci-fi logo. It's a fantasy logo. And I have strong feelings about sci-fi and fantasy being their own things. So how do you feel about Star Wars? Well, Star Wars is space opera. So it is fantasy. Sci-fi fantasy is what it is. It's space fantasy. There's no science in Star Wars. Space fantasy. It's great. I love Star Wars. I'm watching episodes of some of the Star Wars shows on our Patreon. Hey, you can catch Jeff's reaction to that over at patreon.com slash Babylon 5 first. But when that dragon shows up, I was like, they're going all in on this. It will be sci-fi fantasy. And of course it is because there's techno mages. So I thought it was really on brand, really with what they're setting Crusade up for. What did you think about it?

[21:21] I don't know what to think about it. Because in the very first opening piece, we saw the eyeball through the window. And I was like, is that an eyeball? eyeball and like my first thought was like a cat like because it had that it had the long slit and everything i was like cat eyeball okay didn't think a dragon but why would i think a dragon jeff seriously right so when i saw the dragon i was like is that a dragon and and i i think i said i was like there's no way that's real there's no way that that's real it's got to be a hollow thing, it's got to be it's it's just got to be there to freak people out this this is not real but i loved that they had the balls the full-on just cojones to put a golden dragon in a sci-fi episode i've never seen a literal dragon like we could have been in the shire jeff well just a little ways from the shire yeah covered in gold and everything but it it did make me be thankful we had a techno mage because you always want a mage in your party when you're going to fight a dragon always but i I did find it interesting that they were calling the dragon, the messing with the shuttles, all that stuff. They're like, it's terrorism.

[22:31] They're, they're terrorists. And yes. Right. Like, I don't want to be a little bit, I had to really reflect on like what a post nine 11 world we live in, like clearly, but what different, how that word has such a different meaning now than it did in 99 when this aired. Oh, that's true. I was like, that's terrorism. Terrorism? What?

[22:55] Because, I mean, really, at that point, I mean, I guess the closest thing we would have had to it would have been Pearl Harbor, which was 50 years, 40 years before our time. But we had Oklahoma City. Well, but that was domestic, though. It's not for foreign terrorism coming in, you know. Yeah, you're right. But, yeah, then there was Oklahoma City, which we had. So, yeah, yeah, that really, that idea has changed for us. And I mean, okay, take that and even apply it to other shows that talk about terrorism back in the 90s. It's a different feel.

[23:28] All right, let's talk about Galen. What the heck is Galen doing going with Gideon? Like, I get it once he finds out and he's like, oh, there's a golden dragon. There was peanut butter or whatever he said. Like, there's a few things that you're like, these things are really weird. And he's just like, oh, so what else was there? Oh, it was, was it? I get it once he knows what's going on because he clearly knew what it was. But what was he doing there in the first place? Why does Galen just get to go? Like how did he get onto the ship and and and how does he get off calling gideon matthew i loved it i loved that he called him matthew he's the only one who can yeah that's why i'm like he's literally just like i can do this and i'm not military i don't report to you so i'm not i'm just like this works on so many levels but i do feel like in acknowledging what we know about crusade and it's.

[24:21] Watch order and all the things that there's probably like four episodes of relationship building and backstory that might be somewhere else here might not be right right but it was weird it's like of it we get matheson walking into the gym and then galen and nothing back on the ship until like the very end of the episode and that wasn't even that was still just gideon really yeah we spent more time on the medusa which honestly like so i i i really like the uniforms on excalibur sure and seeing them up against the earth force uniforms i thought it was interesting it's like they didn't change everyone's uniforms it's just the x caliber but it was neat seeing them held up against each other you know what i mean like just oh look that's they are different things they have different missions they're doing different stuff so when when we realized that galen knew what was going on clearly knew what was going on did you what was your thought as far as like okay so galen knows what's happening here's what i think it is do you do you Do you remember what you had that thought as? I wasn't really sure, to be honest. I thought he just knew something about the planet at that point. To me, I sat back and I went, this is a Technomage world. Oh. I thought that it was like a world of Technomages, and that's where he realized he was. Or maybe it's like they found where they were all hiding or something like that. And I thought they were the ones who were doing it. And then when it turns out, no, no, no, it was one guy.

[25:48] A guy who, by the way, Alwyn, such a cool Technomage name. Totally. You've got Elric, you've got Alwyn.

[25:55] Galen's pretty cool, too, but, I mean, Alwyn's right there.

[25:59] In the Centauri trilogy books, there's one named Finian, pretty good name. Gwyn is a female one. Eh, could have done better than that. Could have done better than that one. It's not bad. It's not bad. Yeah, I don't know. I want to bring up, we're talking about Alwyn. Yeah. You alluded to this in your recap. Because he and Galen really do go back, way back. In real life. Uh-huh. Because the guy who plays Alwyn in real life is the guy who plays Galen's papa. Father. Yes. He rolls in and is like, Galen, I am your father. I hope he said that. I hope there's an outtake somewhere where he said that. Because that would be hilarious. That would be great. Edward Woodward was Alwyn, Peter Woodward, Galen. And it's funny because while we were watching it, I didn't say anything, but I just had thoughts. They had really good chemistry. Oh, they did. And they're both doing that late 90s over-enunciating sci-fi thing that you do.

[27:01] So I'm like, I wonder. They have great chemistry. It feels like they're being awkward with each other a little bit. And then when I watched it for my notes and when I look at the credits, huh?

[27:09] Really? And hit the IMDb, and I'm like, oh. And then I noticed they have the same hairline. They have the same hairline. They certainly look a lot alike as well. Well, they definitely look a lot alike. And they also like that energy that they had together was it. There's a reason it felt familial. There's a reason it felt like a dad messing with his kid. And like, I was so disappointed in you when you did that. Like, what are you doing? Oh, there's hope for you yet. He says at one point, like, you know, and Galen, who pretty much is just going to take whatever all one says, because that's his daddy. Like you know he may be a crazy old fool but it's still my dad i'm gonna like i gotta respect him we caught in their conversations that elric they said he passed beyond i read that as he died yeah yeah me too but i did like it when he was talking about elric and he's like i was scared of him he was big and powerful in that voice i was like yeah right the michael ansara deal right exactly I really liked Alwyn and he really hit me as that cross between, I talked about him being like brother Theo, but he also kind of reminded me of the ranger 500 years in the future not 500, but a thousand years in the future in Deconstruction of Falling Stars Yeah, brother Alwyn What's that brother Alwyn?

[28:31] I'm almost positive that's who that character was brother Alwyn That'd be awesome, but I just felt so much like likeness between all those characters think about it the Rangers with video camera technology and stuff what if they were the techno mages in the future in a post-apocalyptic universe or they kind of like came together like over time they're like they were the remnants not even that just that they had enough technology behind them that they could appear the way techno mages appear to us now.

[29:03] Okay, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, not even full-on Technomages. It's just they kind of have that same mystery. Yeah.

[29:11] Here's a question I have. Because real quick after meeting Alwyn, we get this nice little sit-down. What a great scene between the three of them where it's just a sit-and-talk. I usually say shows are best when it's two people in a room talking. You know what? If it's three people in a room talking, that's okay, too. Because this was a great scene, core scene. scene, Alwyn says this. He talks about the Technomages going somewhere else. And I had this thought, Jeff, and it was this train of thought. So if Alwyn didn't go with the Technomages, not all the Technomages left, if Alwyn didn't go and he thought Galen might not have gone as well, who else didn't go? Was it just Alwyn? Out of all the Technomages that went, he was the only one who didn't go into hiding? Hiding or is it possible there was more techno mages who didn't go into hiding and if so who are they and where are they and now i need to know that spinoff series of what's going on there what the that and that could be like you think about like a like a even a novel series or even a television like that's an anthology type series yeah totally what's happening on this world what's happening on this world like you don't have to have the same actors in each episode like just I'll bet, though, that this was meant to be that spinoff. That's part of where the fantasy crusade makes sense. We're on a crusade to find this cure, but it has all those fantasy overtones we're talking about.

[30:38] Because it's not just going to be about the plague. It's also meant to be maybe the story of the Technomages. Because in The Call to Arms, Galen said something about some of us stuck around. We're going to stick around 20 to 30 years and just kind of make sure you're all okay. But he also got all over, Alwyn got all over the ones that left because he's like.

[30:59] Right at the launch of the shadow war they took off yeah and when we get to that scene where he's got the big glyph on the ground he's getting ready to blast the medusa i was just like these guys could have been game changers and even if that whole thing was a complete ruse and he couldn't blow the the ship out of the sky the other stuff they're doing they could have totally tipped the scales oh i think i think he could have blown the sky the thing out of the sky and if If Gideon hadn't done what he did, he was pretty much going to, but he's a technical mage. So he can tell the future too, I guess. And he knew that Gideon was going to stop him and he let him stop him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I love his words that he said there. He's like, um, all one says he didn't leave the order. The order is the ones who left. He's still true to who he is. He decided to ride out the war, not in hiding, but out in the open with others, helping them. He says the others displayed Jeff rank cowardice. Those were his exact words, rank cowardice when they decided to leave, which clearly means Jeff. And this is something to really chew on about techno majors, which really means that they as an order, as a group, have some sort of a mandate or some sort of a purpose to help, to protect, to be involved in some way. And that the techno majors shirked that duty.

[32:24] Now, when you and I first met Elric, we were like, of course they have to leave. Of course they have to go beyond the rim. Now, you and I have assumed since that episode they left to go beyond the rim. What we now know is that's not true. They just went into hiding until something. They just went away was, I think, Elric's actually exact words. The implication was they went beyond the rim. But, you know, you can retcon it however you want. Whatever. whatever it makes you have to wonder what life was like with techno mages in the world in the universe bouncing around from place to place to place what was going on with them and you're right how could they have changed the game had they stayed you and i had that conversation back then though of course they had to go because what if their technology what if their magic fell into the hands of the shadows they had to take that off the board except that's not the issue they're They're shirking their responsibilities by doing this. They're not being responsible. They're shirking their responsibilities. It's such a great point. And I made one note. And as you're talking about it, it made me think about another one. But two things that reminds me of one in the world of space fantasy. It's like the Jedi Order where it's like it's kind of the sequel trilogy. Take it for what it's worth. But where Luke's like, they forgot who they were. They lost their way. I'm bringing it back, you know, or whatever. And we get pieces of that even in the, you know, with Obi Wan in the, in the original trilogy, the second, I don't even know what to call the things.

[33:54] But what it also reminded me of, you know, we've talked quite a bit about our faith and our, you know, and how we do, you know, who we are in that community. And I'm a, I'm practicing Catholic and, uh, it's, uh, you know, a lot of problematic stuff goes on with, uh, being, being a Catholic. And that there are quite, it made me think of, there are quite a few priests who have left the church altogether and still have the core beliefs. Yeah. They believe the dogma and the stuff, but they just can't associate with the church anymore. And it really made me think of that. And many of them go on to become mystics.

[34:31] Richard Rohr, he hasn't left the church, Richard Rohr, but his books and stuff and things, scathing commentaries on the church, but he believes in the dogma of everything. Really, I felt a lot of that with Alwyn, where he's just like, look, I'm keeping it real here. Well i mean that to me that even goes back to uh i'm i'm more of the protestant lineage than you are but it goes back and has echoes of martin luther back in the 1500s of when he was like dude you guys have lost your way this is how we're supposed to be let me go nail my 95 theses to the door hey speaking of which to bring that back into this episode when that townsman nailed that that thing with the dagger did you see how nice that dagger was that looked like a dagger from stargate you're gonna leave that dagger hanging right there no no no you use like a kitchen knife that dagger you better keep that thing with you man that reminded of the the knife during the primta when uh when we first met tilk senate there's a really cool looking knife yeah that same thing also that note he hung up there that was ridiculous with the stencil or the stamp of how our legs not even handwriting it's just like one of the roll stamp things i was like Like, wow, there.

[35:48] There was some stuff with the villagers that a lot of it was just kitschy campy stuff like that, where it's like, I'm going to laugh tongue and ha ha. It's ridiculous. They had, they very much had like season two, season three TNG, TNG villager stuff that feel to them.

[36:07] But the one I just couldn't get past was the one villager. Well, they gave two villagers lines, Magnum PI. FBI, the guy running the bar. Yeah.

[36:19] Hey, tell me you've never acted before without telling me you've never acted before. The guy tried. I want to give him, I want to give him credit. Like he made facial expressions and he tried, but he was clearly reading. He was just doing exactly what the director told him to do. Really took me out of a lot of it. I almost wonder if they weren't supposed to be bad on purpose. Almost like super overly simple. Almost, yeah. But if they were, it was almost like it was just too much on the other side to really be like super believable. I like this character, you know, like a little smarty. They got a daughter and stuff. And, you know, and her mom, God rest her soul.

[37:01] I'm just like, wow, yeah, you really care a lot. So they get to a spot where they go take hostages because they got to take matters in their own hands because they don't know what to do fine all one comes in and he takes more hostages that was his answer was to take more hostages and then he wants to turn around and release them what did you think of that whole sequence with taking more hostages when you really shouldn't have taken any and then turning around and wanting to just release them right away and the villagers like what are you talking about it was very confusing like i almost feel like They're like, hey, we need to take some hostages, and we need to do some more cool Technomage stuff. So how do we do both of those things? Well, we'll have them come in and do the hollow demons that turn real and have really nice teeth. And then we'll just say there's the hostages there, and then we'll have them come back. I almost think it was like maybe they needed more time on the episode and wanted to do the fun Technomage. I don't know. It just felt weird and tacked on.

[38:01] I actually liked it. Did you? I liked all in taking more hostages, but really drove home. The point really proved it. And now it's time to release them. We're going to show them. We're not a threat. We're going to you like, we had the ability to do this, but we're not using it. We're showing restraint and we're giving them back to you. Just leave, please. We're not trying to escalate this. We've shown you that we can do this now. Go. I kind of liked that as a tactic. I really did. I didn't see it that way, but the tactic doesn't make sense. You have no show of force against Earth Force. You can't do anything, so you do the one thing you can. Hey, here's what we got. And then, like I said, immediately lay those guns back down and hope that that's the offering of peace. But it was the moment not far from there where I think it was the innkeeper guy who even said, he's like, well, we can do whatever we want as long as you're here. Right. And that was the greatness of Edward Woodward and his acting because you could just feel where he's like, yeah, I screwed up. I screwed up. I've been here too long. Mm hmm.

[39:08] Galen has a great a great little line. He says that they need to have a backup plan in case reason is not sufficient to the cause. And, you know, this is where this is. This is a great piece where I think Star Trek goes to, but they often fail to verbalize.

[39:25] Star Trek's big thing is don't fight. We don't have to fight. Let's get diplomatic. If we can talk to each other, if we can find out about each other, we cannot have to talk. But you also know that thing's loaded with the photons, photon torpedoes and phasers, and they can take care of themselves. You know they can, but this is really all about talking. Here he verbalized it. Like, listen, we're going to try this, but we actually have to have a backup plan in case. I always said reason is not sufficient to the cause. Yeah, that was a great line. because that's some sometimes you just got to roll up your sleeves and go fisticuff you know what i mean when you're uh going back to what the i think was the innkeeper said he's like i can't treat them as a human when they won't treat me like one right so they're trying to introduce that idea of like let's talk let's show them what we have let's reason with them and they're like well they don't treat us like humans so let's sink to their level and do this that's That's such a reason that I hear, though, these days said where people who have been treated with such rank injustice to justify why they turn around and do the things that they're just talking about not doing, you know, and it's it's heartbreaking when you see that because you're like, dude, like you've just been victimized by this. Why do you turn around and do that? that, well, it's, you know, and I, and listen, I don't want to get into the whole, you know.

[40:47] Writing is the language of the, of the oppressed and I'm not going to go there, but like, I, like I get it. I get that, that concept. I think writing, I'll dive just, I'm going to dive just a little bit in because this is a big thing for me. And I've, we've had a lot of conversations and, you know, on our, on our Twitter, on on our discord around this because i'm a i have a core belief to myself that a human just by virtue of their existence is deserving of dignity and respect correct you're human full stop you might be a human who does things that are bad and you should not be held up condoned followed supported because of the things you do but you still deserve dignity and respect and what often comes up in the conversations because there's a lot of people that have been hurt. And I'm not saying this to minimize the hurt of, of anyone, but because there are some people who are jerks and do really awful mean things. And then a lot of them, they did to you, they did to me. But when you turn around and, you know, I I've heard this exact line from somebody like those, those guys are jerks and they deserve to burn. Yeah. Do they, though? Does that help? And I look back at really, if we go all the way to the time of Constantine to now, and should we even go all the way back to Hammurabi? And it's like, well, you know what? You did something bad, so I'm going to punish you. I'm going to come at you.

[42:11] How has that been working out for us? Not well. And Alwyn just calls it out here in such a beautiful way. It really goes back to, Jeff, I wonder if this is just something being the product of a kid of the 90s, maybe even the 80s. But there were so often that we got we got this message. And I can't even remember exactly what shows we saw this. And I mean, I feel like it was stuff like He-Man and G.I. Joe and, you know, our Saturday morning cartoons and stuff where if you do the thing that they do, then you're no better than they are. Like, it's the reason why Superman doesn't kill, because if Superman kills and he's no better than the people he's fighting against. Exactly.

[42:52] And maybe it's just that coming through. Like it's that same idea, but it's true. It's a core belief. If you do those things which you abhor, then you're no better than the people who do those things, right? Like we got to be better. We have to do this better. And I love Alwyn's message, like stick to who you are because he even appeals to their ancestors. Your ancestors came here and lived this way because they wanted to get away from that, and here you are getting back to that. What are you doing? like yeah it was said so well and even in that through through that conversation and then when they moved towards like when when the daughter when the daughter got sick right and and gideon was like daniels has to listen now this is real like we have a real thing to show him it's going to happen their their immediate response was well daniels isn't going to listen it's not going to work he's not were they wrong though they weren't wrong but when you go in with that base assumption assumption, like why not go in and be like, Hey, it's probably not gonna listen, but let's give it a shot.

[43:53] Instead. They're like, man, don't, it's not, but here's the thing though. If you've been dealing with him for so long and it's always been, no, it's always been, no, you don't, he, I'm just not, I'm not there. I don't think he's going to do it. Why even waste my time? I think it's still important though for like, yeah, acknowledge that it hasn't worked, but we only have control over what we have control over. And so instead of sitting back and armchair, you know, battling the whole thing of, well, he's not going to listen, so I'm just not going to do it. No, I have an opportunity to take this forward, and if I don't.

[44:24] And things continue. That's as much my fault as it is Daniel's at that point. Now, if I take that forward to him and he doesn't listen, it's not my fault anymore.

[44:31] I have done what I can do. I believe there is justification in the futility of some, not always, but in some of the things that we do. This was a zero risk thing even to do. There's no downside. But let me ask you a question, though, Jeff. Let me ask you a question. Put yourself in the role of the villagers.

[44:49] You've been there. How many times do you keep going back to somebody? Somebody, how many times do you keep going back before you're just like, Hey, we got to do something because this thing has, Oh, there's a new guy who comes into town and he wants to do the thing that we've already been doing for so long and nothing's working. Well, let's give it one more shot. I mean, like there's a piece of me that goes, yes, I'm with you. And you know what? This is a new person. Maybe they have a, maybe they'll be able to get through in a way that we couldn't let's give them the shot. Also, I need a backup plan in case reason doesn't work because Because at some point, I've got to execute the backup plan. Yeah, absolutely. And that's where I think instead of just being like, he's not going to listen. He's not going to listen. Like, hey, look, we brought this to him before. He didn't listen. Here's how we brought it to him. Do you have other ideas?

[45:33] Inform instead of shut down. But, I mean, like, I get it, though, Jeff. Like, I get the despondency. I get the frustration. You know, like, I get the almost give up. Like, I just can't do this anymore. I just can't do it. I've tried. i just can't do it you should still do it like you should still try again i'm gonna i'm gonna take a huge risk and i'm gonna i'm gonna sort of bring politics into this a little bit but i'm gonna do it in a way that doesn't land on either side of the fence we never bring politics into this job never is well science fiction isn't political never at all in any way but at the time that we're recording this we recently had a presidential debate and it was an interesting debate and i was talking to a good friend of mine during the debate she is from uh punjab in india she's punjabi okay and became an american citizen 10 12 years ago okay and i made a comment to her i was just like oh my gosh we deserve so much better and she said yes and we get what we We deserve. And what I really took that was, is I don't care what side of the aisle you sit on. We have not had a great track record of presidents for a long time.

[46:54] So you could sit back and do it. Many more than a third of Americans have done and said, well, Well, you know, I've tried and it's just doesn't work. So I'm just not going to try anymore. I'm just not even going to vote. Or you can say, hey, you know what I have? I have this ballot. That's the one thing I have here. I'm going to use it. And even if it's futile, I'm going to make my voice. I'm going to use what I have in this. And now that's not an apples to apples going back to someone who, you know, Daniels and saying your daughter's about to die is a different thing. But also when you stop trying, oh, my gosh, I'm going to make it even more simple. When my daughter was young we read these incredible books uh uh iggy peck architect and i had a twist scientist there's one yeah yeah these books yeah they're so good one called rosie revere the engineer and she was this young kid who created things and invented things and was so imaginative and then one of her inventions like just was total pooped out and she got made made fun of and she was crushed and her aunt or her, it was her aunt who was a powerful inventor and engineer and did cool stuff said this line that just the only true failure in life is to quit. And so, yeah, you're being oppressed. You're being strip mined. Now they're poisoning your people and you're just going to quit? I don't know.

[48:19] That sounds like defeat to me. That said, when did you know Alwyn didn't die in the blast?

[48:26] When did I know when I finally saw him show up back up on screen?

[48:29] When did I suspect the entire time? you know but but i do i mean my note here was gideon's solution was to destroy the mind even though it destroyed all one in the process um i will tell you this i truly thought way early i mean i'm talking back in the bar scene all one's gonna die by the end of this episode he can't get out of this episode alive so i was expecting a death also he's.

[48:54] A techno mage he can make it look like whatever the heck he wants it to look like you know i i thought gideon's answer to the whole situation was one hell of an answer i really did but uh what i what i was curious about though in the middle of that was isn't that weapon on the the excalibur isn't that like a planet killer couldn't have destroyed the whole planet i don't think so it's not that powerful i don't think so okay okay they could take out a destroyer you know or a capital ship but i don't think i don't think you could destroy a plan not quite death star material okay fair enough fair enough because i was like man that that must have been a really controlled blast if if all it did was just take out like a little put a little crater in it right there you know i went on quite the journey with that whole scene because at first i was like oh this has to be fake he is agreeing to blow the thing up far too fast like he's not pushing back he's just agreeing and then like it kept going i was like oh my god did gideon just cave this and then it's like oh he's got to come back but it It kept like they showed multiple scenes that Alwyn should have been in.

[50:00] And I'm like, oh, my God, they actually killed. And then he showed up. I'm like, oh, yeah, you.

[50:04] You got me. You got me. You got me. Did you think at any moment that Gideon was in on it? Like when Gideon said fire, did he know that Alwyn wasn't really there or that Alwyn was going to survive that whole thing? Yeah, I think the whole thing was planned. You think so? That's why I brought up the thing of like I don't even know for sure that his glyph thing would actually like maybe it was just literally, hey, look at these lights that I'm making.

[50:31] I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. Yeah? Yeah, I don't know that Gideon really knew he might have suspected Gideon is a he understands he's a techno mage stuff happens. Like I think it do you remember that episode of Stargate Jeff when we first met Cassie and and Sam spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen the episode. It's in the first season of Stargate and Sam takes her and you know, she's been she's been turned into into a bomb effectively and they take her and they dump her in like the bottom of this missile silo. Leave her in the room by herself so she can explode not hurt anybody else but at the very end sam goes running in and disobeys all orders and she goes there to be with her so she doesn't have to die alone and it was so heroic and it was just such this moment and turns out she was a dud.

[51:19] Didn't blow up right and we get all the way to the end and they're like well how did you know and she goes i don't know i just knew and the thing is if sam if sam knew or even had an inclination she wasn't really going to blow up, that takes all the teeth out of her as a sacrifice, out of a heroic moment. It's no, I didn't actually think she was going to blow up. So I went in there. So I did something stupid that I had zero evidence for. I'm not a hero. I'm an idiot. The idea that Gideon was in on that makes Alwyn's move. It takes some of the teeth out of that to me because think of the balls of all when like, here's what I don't know if what we were seeing in the mind was a projection of of all one doing all that stuff or was actually all in himself really doing it and really causing this threat knowing that gideon was going to do it and he had a way to escape immediately his own personal transporter or whatever whatever his techno mage thing is right um so for gideon to, and it takes the teeth out of gideon's decision a little bit too like gideon had to sit there and go if i let him do this i'm responsible for my sister ship and everybody in there and and he buys into to what Marshall Teague is telling him, Captain Daniels is telling him, which, by the way, he was wrong. It would not be Gideon's fault that all of those people died. It's your own dang fault, dude. Sorry.

[52:38] But Gideon also realizes what side he's on. It's a decision he has to make.

[52:44] Also, informed decision, he is a Technomage, so maybe something could happen, but I'm not sure. That way is much more interesting. It's much more compelling than, yeah, he was in on the plan the whole time. I like the idea, too. It could have been a projection. We've seen Technomage projections. In this episode. Yeah, and this very one, and the one right before it as well. All right, there you go. Well, Brent, I think that we have now reached that part of the show where we're going to boil this all down. We're going to see if this episode might have possibly maybe had any messages or morals or ethical questions or mirrors to hold up to society. Maybe it even gave us hope we could be better in the future. Sure. Brent, what messages did you pull out of the long road? Jeff, there's so many. And we've danced around most of them or all of them in here. All in talking about that little girl dying from an overdose and Gideon wants to present it as evidence to the captain to force a stoppage of the mining. But all one says, they're just going to say it's a trick. It's not real that they're what they're doing is not hurting anyone. And I'm sitting here thinking, talk about mirror to society. Hello, big tobacco. Hello, big sugar. Hello, all of you guys who out there who went to the FDA, bought them off because we know that's what you did and told us that nicotine doesn't hurt anybody. Told my parents that my mom now has COPD. Now, nobody stuck the cigarette in her mouth and made her take a puff, but you told us that.

[54:10] All this high fructose corn syrup you put in our food and all these things that are allowed. And you know what? To our international friends ends where you guys don't allow a lot of the ingredients that we have here in America.

[54:22] Thank your government for that. Really, thank your government for that. For real. I loved Owen's line to the villagers. Your ancestors came here because it was a better way of living than the way they had been. You choose your tactics and their way, and then you're going to lose who you are. If you be like them, you're going to lose who you are, and you're going to lose your way of life. Not just who you are as a person, but also your way of life. You'll become no better than them. home what a message that mess that's a message that doesn't require expounding upon at all it just is what it is um i i love this gideon says at the end the mining operation is being moved it's going to be hard without cooperation from the locals i'm adding that piece in and a lot of people are going to die back home without the help that comes from here this is a plea to work together yeah hey here's your message you can accomplish good stuff if you work together we We hit this one all the time here at the show all the time when you lose what makes you you you've lost yourself all one was ashamed because the villagers weren't being true to who they were. They didn't even listen to all one when they should have right and now he's gone and they are going to have to live with the consequences. The real consequence of their action being they lost all in not. They thought that he was talking about this. Turns out it's actually this over here.

[55:42] Don't lose yourself. I think that's the one that keeps coming up. Don't lose yourself. Don't lose yourself. I loved at the very end, all in having a conversation with Galen out in the woods. And he says, it's time for them to make their own magic. Very reminiscent of a line Dylan said at the very end of Objects at Rest. Or maybe it was Sheridan. It's time for us to be the ones. It's time for us to go write our own story. It's time for us to do that. So I love that. But I think the one that jumps out to me the most, Jeff, the one that jumps out to me absolutely the most, this episode flips the idea of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few on its head. In this case, we're saying that the needs of the few are just as valid as the needs of the many. Yeah.

[56:26] That's a much better message. passage the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few is noble and courageous when it's you the individual making that decision to forego your own needs for the sake of others but only in as much as it affects you let's look to the wrath of khan star trek 2 spock making a decision at the end of the thing to go sacrifice himself to save the rest of the ship and he quotes the needs in this case the needs of the few are the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the fewer in this case the needs of the one as long as that's a personal choice when you force the needs of the few and group me in as few and now i have to give up what i got to serve the many that's not noble and that's not courageous and and frankly it's a little disgusting i've always hated that that that, It sounds good, I think, until you really, really look at it. You do the math on it, and it is gross.

[57:24] You know, you can't inflict, and I do like this, and let's say you're part of the mass. You can't inflict your quote-unquote needs on the few and prioritize yourself over them. And frankly, this is what we do. I mean, Jeff, I would be remiss if I did not call out our own country's history. This is the history of humanity. You could look down through the ages, through the Huns, the Greeks, the Romans, probably ancient African tribes as well that I'm unaware of, the probably even Native American story tribes before the Europeans arrived, stuff that happened here. This is the story of humanity. I can't speak to everybody, but I can speak to our own country and how often here in America we, and by we, I mean the majority, right? Right.

[58:13] The government has prioritized our needs, our wants over the needs of the few. I'm thinking specifically right now of the horrendous trail of tears. I'm thinking of the horrendous years that we kept people in slavery. I'm thinking of the horrendous years post slavery where we still. Oh, crap. It's still going on today. We still divide people by classes and by color of their skin and racism runs rampant. And even, I mean, Jeff, we're so naive. We even thought we had it solved 20 years ago. Turns out it was just hiding, lurking there underneath the surface the whole time. But regardless, you cannot inflict your needs. Oh, I need it. Let's go to Stargate. They needed the trinium. Trinium, that's what it was. They needed the trinium, so we're going to go get it and be damned with you. Okay, let's look at the movie Avatar. They need the unobtainium. Could you please come up with a better name? Yeah, they actually needed a writer, not an unobtainium. Really? You know, we're going to just do this because we're here and we need it and we have the power to come in and just demolish you guys. And it doesn't you don't matter. We can't do that. It's not OK. It's never been OK throughout all of history.

[59:28] Does it mean we upend everything with where we are now, even though it stands on those shoulders? No, but we can look at that and go. That was wrong. Then it's wrong. Now we can be better and not do that going forward. We cannot inflict our needs on few and prioritize ourselves over them because the needs of the few, I love this phrase, the needs of the few are just as valid as the needs of the many. I think any time that you feel you know you're making a decision because you feel something is right for someone else or another group and a member of that group is not part of the decision making process, you're wrong.

[1:00:04] Don't care how good your intent is or anything, but in this we didn't even see good intent, right? We saw strip mining. We saw, you know, complete disregard for a culture because, well, we know what's best and what's worse. I really felt that I heard through a lot of this episode. Not only do we get to decide, but we feel we have a right to that mineral. We have a right to that because of our hardship and our tragedy. So we have a right to it. But you can blanket that same feeling against all the colonization in the whole world. Well, they have a thing there, and I want that thing, so I have a right to it. Ouch. I mean, ugh. So, yeah, well done. Good recap of those messages because there was a lot in this one. There was a lot of them. Oh, my gosh. I apologize to the people who watched the unedited version of the print watches because I spent a lot of time typing with the video paused, but with a lot of time typing. I'll bet. bet jeff did you have any any messages you wanted to bring up maybe that i that i missed you know there were a couple little things i had that was my big one it was around you know feeling you have a right to them but i also had the the point of how alwyn gave them a false sense of uh superiority.

[1:01:16] And confidence when they were actually fully dependent on that and what where do we have that because they were they were sitting there going thor thor thor thor thor and where where oh no, Alwyn's not here anymore. But I thought the idea of the girl, the daughter getting sick, I was really interested by that because the way they played it out, it was very minor, you know, like the whole thing. In fact, a lot of that, I feel like they spent some time on it, but it was literally just like, oh, yeah, so you already have it in your system? So the little bit that was more was now too much. And then they kind of moved on. They didn't interrogate it anymore, which is fine.

[1:01:59] And it's almost dumb, but it's like all things in moderation. When they have enough, when they have what they need, they're great. They're super healthy. They live long lives. But not that she got greedy, but to make it more of a mirror to our society, when you get greedy and you go get more, it doesn't go well. You might not die right away like this girl. It's like one of the things I've heard said quite a bit, and I couldn't agree more. Today, you won't walk in to a jet engine because you know you're going to get sucked in and chopped into billions of pieces and blown out the back end. Right. But you will smoke a cigarette or you will eat that chocolate cake full of high fructose corn syrup. Those things that 40 years down the line are going to have really big impacts on you. This is kind of a metaphor for that. Just, you know, take what take and use what you need.

[1:02:54] That's it. it well jeff we go through here and we look for those messages but you know one of the things we also do what's that we rank these episodes we create the 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking of crusade jeff our current top five is war zone and there you go so jeff you get to place it my friend where does the long road go was this better than war zone does this become our new new number one or not quite and this is our new number two yes this becomes the new number one i think you've heard us talking about this now for quite some time you said it i don't disagree this is the episode to beat this is the long very long night of londo malari of crusade yeah and you know the more i think about it i'm not even sure that we should count sleeping in light against very long night of londo malari like it just doesn't seem fair it's kind of its own thing.

[1:03:47] It is, and technically it was season four, but it just doesn't seem fair. You know, that's such a good episode. Like, here are the top 109 episodes of Babylon 5 and Sleeping in Light. Right, right. And can we just gush over Sleeping in Light and how perfect of a finale that show was? For real, I could turn 20 minutes on that. Yeah, let's not right now. But instead, Brent, that's it. Now, for the long road, we've taken this excellent near-perfect episode, Wrapped it up. Next week, we're watching an episode called Appearances and Other Deceits.

[1:04:22] For the first time, never seen these episodes before. All we know are the titles, nothing else. And we like to play a game where we predict what the next episode is going to be about based on that title. Brent, what do you think?

[1:04:33] Appearances and other deceits are going to be about. It's really hard not to hear the phrase appearances and other deceits coming right off a Technomage episode where we saw the golden dragon and we saw whatever happened with Alwyn down there. And I'll be like, it's another Technomage episode because that should be what it's about. Out so my strong bold prediction is this is not a techno mage episode appearances and other deceits i mean i don't know they're gonna they're gonna meet okay here we go they're gonna meet a race out there that is not exactly what they seem and we're gonna have to uncover what's actually what's actually going on which is a little bit of what this week was kind of about too um but yeah i think it's we're gonna meet some new race out there they're gonna to be holding on probably to some secret of something and they're holding they're holding a big secret and we got to get to the bottom of it how about you this immediately conjures rumors bargains and lies for me just in the name very different piece on it and so like initially i feel like it's going to be something about having a story and keeping up appearances but what i think it is like when you were saying they're going to go find another you know a planet and And I'm going to flip that, and I'm going to say they're going to be either a part of space or a planet where they have to change the appearance of the Excalibur in themselves and keep up appearances and deceits to try to like.

[1:06:00] You know, really almost what Gideon and Galen did in going down to the planet, getting, you know, the clothes and whatever, but doing that on the bigger scale of the whole ship.

[1:06:12] Has to has to somehow slip and fit into that that construct and brent we're going to find out exactly what it's about right here next week thank you all so much for joining us on this very just short toe in the water dip into the long road of crusade what a great episode but no we really appreciate you being here if you haven't already please subscribe like rate review do the things The podcast and the YouTube things. The big thing that you can do, though, to help us out, the thing that means so much to us, is please share this show with somebody else. Somebody who either hasn't watched Crusade before or has a deep love for it and might want to relive that first-time experience. So until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yeah. Brent, what's up? Hey, you know I'm right about that one thing, right? Maybe. I mean, what if you're wrong about it? Well, that's not very likely now, is it? All right, techno mage. Where are you going? I don't know.