The Rules of the Game

[0:00] So what is to be gained by fighting? Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot. I'd like to be the one to make that decision.

[0:06] Music. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5. For the first time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin. And I'm Brent Allen. You know, Jeff and I were two veteran Star Trek nerds that were all about Star Trek, and everything we did was all about Star Trek and how awesome Star Trek was and how superior Star Trek was to everything. And we thought we'd give this show, Babylon 5, this lowly little rip-off show.

[0:10] I want you to know that this thing just made a very large dent in my ship. The year is 2024.

[0:45] Dime Store Star Trek, we thought we'd give it a shot, and we'd do the Star Trek thing, and we'd overanalyze it, and we did it. And you know what happened? It turns out it's awesome, and it's amazing, and it's not Dime Store, Star Trek. Star Trek is Dime Store Babylon 5. We fell in love with it so much. Okay, gosh, I just feel like I lost everything by saying that. But regardless of that, we fell in love with the show so much that we decided we had to keep it going with the spinoff show Crusade for the first time. We're keeping it all going, everything we do. We're going to look for those messages, those morals, those meanings that all the episodes have inside of them. And we're going to double down, triple down, actually, on this not being a Star Trek podcast, because we play the rule of three, a game that limits us to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. One of those places. No substitutions. Extensions or refund. And Jeff, what happens if we make one of those references to that other dime store show? You're going to hear this.

[1:48] Hey, Brent. Hey, Jeff. We have a five star review. Oh, yes. On Apple Podcasts, this is from Chris in NZ. Is that like New Zealand? That's my guess, yeah. Ten points if you do this whole thing with a New Zealand accent. I'm not. I'll get zero points. Twenty points if you do it with a New Zealand accent. I'll get zero points. Everyone's got a price, Jeff. Thirty points if you do it with a New Zealand accent. I just don't want to offend anyone, and I know that I will.

[2:16] You probably better not. Thirty points to not do it in a New Zealand accent. There we go. I'll take that. i've been listening to b5 podcast since about 2007 that's a guy that was listening to podcast when we still understood what the word podcast meant there was a reason it had a pod this guy's a first one for podcasts yeah there's about two that we had there are babble on five podcasts back then like that's incredible right what a time what a time, So back in 2007, I think this is the best one so far. Yeah. The guys come from a background of analyzing hundreds of Star Trek episodes and apply that to B5 and come up with surprisingly smart and thoughtful analyses. And they're regular like clockwork with their podcast posting. Highly recommend. Hey, listen, Chris in New Zealand. Thank you so much. That is high praise, Jeff. Yeah, highest. Been listening since 2007. And he says we're the best. Can't disagree.

[3:16] We're the best of what we're the best of us. Yeah. There you know, there's what I love about Babylon five podcasting is there's something out there for everybody. Right. If you like this style or that style, there's there are great podcasts out there. We're so many in our league of non aligned podcasts that are active right now or have been active recently. There's fantastic podcast. There's a lot of really great options out there. So I don't know if I'd say best, but we're the best amongst you and me. Well, you know, Jeff, along with our game, The Rule of Three, there is another game that we like to play, and it comes up at the end of the show. Jeff, I don't know that we're ever going to run this again. Oh, wait, maybe we will.

[3:54] Anyway, regardless of that, we'll see how this works. Regardless of that, there is another game we tend to like to play at the end of our episodes where we guess what next week's episode is going to be about based on title alone. We don't look at thumbnails. We don't look at reviews or little blurbs about what the episode's about, just title alone. And this is the spot, Jeff, where we revisit our prediction from last week to see how close we were. So, Jeff, what did you say the rules of the game was going to be about and how close do you think you were? I thought this was going to be a pretty fun episode, mostly focused on Gideon and Doreena having to cheat to get what they need. I think this was a pretty fun episode in a number of ways, and Gideon was in it. Yeah, it was fun. Some of it was really, really fun. But, yeah, I was pretty far off on this one. What did you think it was going to be about? I just said it was going to be Gideon having to game the system and making one big last, like, hurrah. It wasn't really a system he was gaming.

[4:55] Honestly, who was gaming the system was Eilerson in this one. And he did have a hurrah. Definitely had a hurrah. Gideon had a hurrah, too. Everyone got hurrahs. Studio interference at its finest. Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. Well, listen, I wasn't really that close. You weren't really that close. However, for the folks out there who may not have seen this episode in a while, or maybe they didn't even bother watching it because, what, it's just crusade. But they're hanging out with us anyway. Why don't you let the folks out there know exactly what this episode was about? Brent, we're on Babylon 5. Eilerson and Chambers are slumming it, walking around, while Gideon teams up with Lockley to negotiate with the Brickiri to land on a planet called Lorca 7 to investigate possible connections with the Plague. Remember that Plague thing this show was apparently about? While Max tries to be a super tough guy in front of Dr. Chambers, we meet Cynthia Allen, his ex-wife. The negotiations are not going well with Gideon, so Lockley connects Gideon with representatives from the world itself, sidestepping the Brecquery completely. That doesn't seem to help either, though. The Lorkhans are a very pure, morally superior people.

[6:11] Rhys and Pollux tout the most holy, while Pollux tells Gideon, no, no, not the one. Frustrated, they leave the Lorkhans and go to dinner. But the Lorkhans have a really subtle sense drone. It's really stealthy watching them. There's no possible way anyone could ever see that thing flying around, but seeing that they're going to be persistent and they're going to keep trying finding ways to land. They decide to kill Gideon because you know, I'm sure they must not have had any other options available to them. Max off on his own drops in on his ex. He finds out his cat, Mr. Kitty, is doing well. But Cynthia, Cynthia's not. She's broke. The quarantine has killed her business, so she took out a loan for 50k from a loan shark. So now she owns 100k. And despite her being the one that left the marriage, she expects Max to pay the shark, this dude named Rolf Mueller. And Max agrees to help. He finds this Mueller guy, hands him 50k, and tells him to call it good. But to no one's surprise, he wants the whole 100,000. Max doesn't threaten him because he doesn't threaten people, but he basically threatens him that he'll be in a lot of trouble if Mueller comes after that interest.

[7:29] Gideon and Lockley are slowly sparring. Entendre, double entendre, outright flirting. They're playing the game, and they're playing it well. They end up trying to out-diversity each other, leading to them taking a stroll through Down Below in their civvies. Lockley gives Gideon enough rope to hang himself and he totally does. She's down here all the time and the people even know who she is. She is of the people and for the people. So Gideon eats his words while Lockley eats a drossy barbecue sandwich. I wonder is it the drossy that are the more vinegary barbecue or I forget where that's from. It doesn't really matter though. What does matter is that the Lorcan's have tracked them down. So they start blasting, and in what is the absolutely worst fight choreography of the series so far, and that's saying a lot, they knock him out and they get away. Mueller, in the meantime, doesn't threaten. He just does.

[8:28] He's kidnapped Mr. Kitty, and now Max means business. He sends Dr. Chambers to hang out with his ex, and she spills all the dirt on Max, who's digging through some weapons in his closet and paying off some drossy. But we do find out why he sent Chambers to hang out. Mueller drops by, and she straight punches him out, running him off. But now he's really mad. Not mad enough to fight off the draws he Max paid off, though. They get done with him, and we're down to Max and Mueller. Max shoots some neck bondage thing from the weapon he pulled out, and now Mueller is tagged. If he comes within 10 feet of him or Cynthia, he gonna explode. Lockley and Gideon get into her quarters, where she has a shower with real hot running water. Between the allure of that and the allure of their incredible chemistry, they get it on. Finally, finally it happened. To quote now President John Sheridan, Woohoo! Ha ha! Ha ha ha! Ha ha! Oh my God, you did that! Ha ha ha!

[9:42] That's great i'm so sorry to interrupt you that's great how could i not do that that was right in the strike zone right there, I love that. Oh, I love that. Shortly after, a different Lorcan shows up and gives permission for them to land on the planet, hoping their impurity will lead to temptation and test the Lorcan's faith. Brent, was your faith tested at all while you watched the rules of the game? Jeff, I got to tell you something about this episode. I didn't like it. Really? Did not like it. I loved this episode. Okay, okay. I loved this episode. I got to tell you, the last bunch of weeks, we have not been in what we'll call JMS episodes. It's been other writers. This episode is a JMS episode, and it felt like it. His voice, his style, it's so – I don't – maybe we've just gotten used to it. It's like we just know it now. You know what I mean? It's comfortable, right? It is. It's comfortable. And it just, it's like we're in the hands of somebody who knows what the hell he's doing. And who knows the characters.

[10:57] Exactly. And he knows how to write and he knows what's going on. And I'm not saying that the other ones did a bad job. It's just this is what we've come to know. This is what we've come to expect from a JMS production.

[11:12] And it was just so good to be back. Not just to be back in those hands. But it just felt familiar and it was good. It was so much fun. It looks like the characters, the actors were having fun with their roles in this, despite whatever interference they may or may not have had from the studio. I don't know where in that order they produced this episode for you. Listen, you and I are watching this episode is the final episode of Crusade. We're well aware it may not have aired this way. This is what JMS told us to watch at the very end. This was his order. We followed one of his orders. Apparently there's one of his orders because he has a few. Right, right, right, right. Um, here's the thing. And most surprisingly, this is the part that surprises me the most. Do you know what the best part of this episode was for me? Was that Max really for everything we've given Max so far in this series? This, I loved him in this episode. This showed, this showed us exactly what we do and what we thought about Max, that he was going to start one way and he was going to end a whole different way. And this was an episode that was meant and designed to be that first big, like, let's get to know him, his past, what really makes him tick. Because it's not working for IPX. That's not what really makes him go around.

[12:29] And even the guy, I'm sorry, I don't even know the actor's name. What's his name? Same. I couldn't tell you. Okay. Whatever it is, people are throwing it down in the comments right now. Whatever it is, this is the first time I've enjoyed his portrayal of the character because I have not liked I've not liked the way the actor has portrayed Max, you know, as opposed to like Richard Biggs. You know, we didn't like Franklin at first, loved his performance, though. I've not been a big fan of the performance so far. But in this one, I was like, yes, I am. And this is this is the guy they cast. And I can see why they cast him finally in this role. So I, I loved everything about this episode. There's only one thing that I, that I am just so disappointed with. And it's knowing that this is the end and we don't have anything more to go. How about you, Jeff? What'd you think? As the episode went on, I disliked Max more.

[13:26] Really? And more. Until this one moment where everything turned around for me. And i got him yeah i i connected with him and i understood this character for the first time i agree this story that started off just seeming so over the top ridiculous and dumb was heartfelt i i cared about it it was amazing, I mean, Gideon and Lockley are going to be the top of any episode they're in. They're just the magic they have together is that. But this episode was absolutely amazing because of Max Eilerson. Yeah. And it blows me away that I'm saying that. But you're right.

[14:11] Everything clicked with this character. And to this point, and this is one of the things I'm interested in because I think this was produced earlier. I think the black uniform episodes are from earlier, and then the gray episode ones were like, I don't know, could be the opposite. Either way, he didn't change how he portrayed Max after this. So, eh. But it's that glimmer, that glimmer of hope that, like, he could have been such a compelling character had the show been able to continue. But, yeah, I loved, I loved this episode, just like you. Is great yeah and here's the thing i i can't even track with what i was thinking of the max character through the episode my thoughts are all here's how i felt about it at the end so maybe i tracked with you maybe i didn't track with you i don't know those of you that watch the burnt watches video you guys probably know but i yeah gosh man i just you know what might have made this episode so much just really good the fact that we were on babel on five it felt like we were home it did That said, I want to get a glaring thing out of the way, though.

[15:21] Being on Babylon 5, seeing Drazi walking around, just on Narn, you know, like, oh, these are the people, the area we're familiar with. But that mother effing soundtrack just graded so much harder because it does not belong there. Like, it just stood out and it was so bad. Right, right. But it is definitely that whole Babylon 5, the station as a character. When Lockley and Gideon go to down below, we know what's up. Like we know where it is.

[15:56] We know where it is. Like, you remember back when we were first watching Babylon 5, well into the second season, Jeff? We wanted a map. Yeah, we're like, I don't know where we are. I cannot. I still feel that way about the Excalibur. You throw me stuff in the Excalibur. I have no idea. Where is the bridge on the ship? Show me the outside of the ship and point to the spot where the bridge is. I think I might have figured it out. They'd show it a couple times directly, the bridge. Would they?

[16:24] Maybe, maybe not. It's in a very safe spot. I'm sure it would never get blowed up by anything where it is. The only thing that I'm pretty sure I know is where that big, long tube subway thing is. And that goes right down the very long, round shaft. Prince 12. If you're just now figuring that out, you haven't been paying attention.

[16:49] No, but my first two notes are, we're actually on Babylon 5. It feels so good there was a line right at the beginning where i think it was lockley who said it and and says something to the effect of yeah some things last longer than they should that was max oh that was max max said that and and i was like is that like a little b5 meta thing about things you know things lasting longer than it should he did say babylon 5 was one of those things yeah it was one of those things that lasted longer than it should i mean and and what i mean by that is not Babylon 5 outstayed its welcome and just should have gone away a lot sooner. But for all the troubles that Babylon 5 came up against as a show, as a production, and the fact that they made it to the end, you know, and I'm thinking of that little card that's right at the end of, what was it, Objects at Rest, which is like JMS, just a big middle finger to everybody. It's like, to everybody who said we couldn't make it, don't. You know, this one's for you. I just, I don't know. I kind of, I liked that little, that little line. I want to talk about the Lorcan's a little bit. The most holy one. Most holy. Most holy. Did you know, do you know who the actor is that played Pollux?

[18:05] Not the one. He's not the one. This is Athris, baby. Yeah. Athris. Would never have known. Nope. Never would have known. I saw his name in the opening credits and I was like, oh, look. Tim chote i was like wasn't that zathras that was couldn't fit had no idea who it was in the show like i'm trying to figure out who it was did i was listening from the voice i was listening to what it turns out he's kind of short very like alarmingly actually yeah he went out of his way to change his voice to make sure it wasn't even close but yeah he's he i don't know who the other guy was but whatever reese his name was reese no like the actor i don't know who the same i don't know i don't recognize his name yeah here's the thing what do you think of the lorkan makeup they looked sick they did absolutely i didn't like it i said i loved everything about this i didn't like this particular makeup um it probably looks like what the makeup designer wanted it to look like but it just didn't work yeah yeah it was the the little like the little lesion growth things didn't they didn't look like they were healthy and their hair yeah that hair is not seen conditioner in a very long time.

[19:19] Yeah, it was not. But here's the thing. Maybe that's how they were supposed to look. They were supposed to look sickly. They were supposed to look grungy or dirty or whatever. Maybe that's just how they were supposed to look. I think it is. This, I think one of the things that I found to be disappointing, I'm not going to say with this episode, but I'll say with the crusade that we've seen, is we got to see some brand new aliens, which is cool. Two in 13 episodes, their whole shtick is that they're morally superior.

[19:51] Really? We're going to play that twice? But what I wonder is, were they kind of unkempt and gross was because they felt they were above having to worry about those pesky things like hygiene. We're so superior. Or not even just hygiene, but just above... Because you can be clean and still look, you know... Disheveled. So just above a hairbrush or temptness or... There are stories about Leonardo DiCaprio. And the story is that he was between movies at one point, and he was just hanging out in L.A., standing on a street or whatever, and someone handed him a buck and was like, hey, buddy, go get something to eat. Because when he's not working, he just lets himself go. I don't know that to be a fact, but that's what they say. But when he shows up for a movie, right, he shows up for his job, he does what he's got to do and takes care of himself. I almost think that's these guys. They're just like, we don't have to dress up for you. You're humans, Babylon 5ians.

[20:56] Yeah, you're beneath us. it's what it's that like uh you wake up in the morning you know you haven't showered yet you haven't whatever you're just going downstairs to get a cup of coffee or whatever and you don't care who comes out of the door kids spouse whatever if you're staying in my house dude you're gonna see me in my pajamas and not looking great whatever i don't care morning yeah that's how you're gonna say to morning do you want to go ahead and talk about the rest of the lorkins deal and their whole their whole yeah let's get them let's get through them so um the two lorkins are like yeah we've got to take out get they make a decision to take him out in a heartbeat like that was a hard like jump right and they put the little thing in their hand and my my first was are they gonna hand blast gideon and lockley that's exactly what they were trying to do it is i'm like are these guys gould what in the world i called it logan's run like as soon as he When you slapped it on, I was all, identify, right? What a dumb weapon, though. You know what I mean? Like, how are you going to be accurate with this? Well, Iron Man's accurate with that. Although he probably has, like, internal guidance systems within his suit.

[22:05] So just for fun, do this. Like, put your wrist up like you're going to shoot, and then look at it. It's not a 90-degree angle. Yeah, you're right about that. You're kind of down. So in order to go 90 degrees, you've got to, like, crank your arm back a little bit. So they go through the whole thing.

[22:21] They, you know, we have the pew, pew, pew, which was in Act 4, not Act 5, which I thought was real weird. But I loved it. The placement of it was good. It was so bad. there's this scene where they're walking jeff come on brent brent come on they're walking down the hallway right and they've got lockley or whatever and then gideon grabs this like you know parallel bar thing and swings clearly straight between them like he swings between them and keeps going but the next scene is them getting kicked in the back and rolling it's just like oh my oh my god what i didn't mind it i saw it but i didn't mind it i didn't mind it i had to go back and watch it like three times i'm like is this seriously happening i can't believe this maybe i'm just okay with the cheese factor in the show at this point like call it out for what it is well that and even like later on a different topic but chambers when she goes and gacks dude.

[23:15] She's got a black belt ninjutsu man so apparently she really is like a high level trained martial artist and a stunt a stunt person wow good for her but that punch was i mean you know in tv they punch like this far away you know like there's inches between the person's face and that hand yeah yeah uh they just forgot to change camera angles and you could just see it oh yeah daylight oh yeah yeah it wasn't good oh it wasn't good but again i mean like what do you expect from a show like this at this point like right yeah that's true but yikes i was pretty surprised at the deal the lorkans had with the brecquery okay so the brecquery make sure they don't get attacked and they stay out of their thing for 10% of their planetary revenue.

[24:05] Do you know how much money that's got? Wow. Yeah, but I mean, when you're being extorted, to be extorted for just 10%, that's not so bad. That's not so bad. And by the way, isn't that completely on brand for the Brickeri? True. Like Brickeri and Drasi, both of them, like. Kind of filthy. Yeah. Members of the Alliance. Who do you think, or do you have a theory as to who the most holy is or what the most holy is? A mythical creature that doesn't really exist? Oh, oh, or, or, or it's the great egg. A great egg. Oh, I love that. I love that.

[24:44] You know, they kind of look like the people from. A little bit, a little bit. Had the ratty hair and stuff. Could have that whole like Romulus and Riemann thing. You know, like similar thing just diverged a little bit. They just don't have as much access to the sun, so they're a little more washed out. Exactly. They're from the dark area. They're from the dark area. But now with all the new technology that they're getting, they can just kind of come out and they own. So like 500 years ago, the current population just disappeared, right? Like, oh, they're gone. And then they showed up and took it. Maybe the other population disappeared because they tried to do medical care for them, and it made their souls just fly out.

[25:27] Poof. Well, you know, that's what happens when you cut them. And then, you know, if you do it to their children, then they kill their own children, like for realsy. So i love that idea that's great that's all i got man it's here's the thing though to fast forward so they go through their whole deal i mean pull it right out of a page of any newspaper article these days a religious figure turns murderer all in the name of their most holy they go through the whole thing the new lorkin comes in who's like yeah it turns out they're not good they were extorting they were they were just trying to stay in power they were doing all of this we're gonna to welcome you we're going to welcome you not because we're awesome but actually because we're still more religious and holier than now we just now need to prove it to ourselves by letting you come in and try to tempt us and here's the thing jeff i'm listening to that and i'm going oddly there's a weird kind of logic behind the lurkins test of faith idea there if you if you really believe that you are that much holier than other people right then testing your faith is not like that works to quote Michael Eddington. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

[26:41] I mean, I mean, It's a testing of faith, a real testing of faith. So, yeah, I didn't hate I didn't hate that that response from him. I mean, the way he said it, but the idea it's it's so schmoozy. It is so schmoozy and it's so arrogant and it is probably by all rights. And I've never read their religious text, but it's probably so against the the the actual faith that they proclaim to follow. But it's got to be right there in the deal, you know? Yeah, those are the Lorkins.

[27:21] Rather forgettable, like Alien of the Week kind of guys. Only thing I'm going to remember them for in the end is the little Logan's Run hand-blasty things. I'm just going to remember that Zathras was one of them. I actually forgot that while we were talking about them. Oh, did you? It's not a high mark for him. Not a high mark. You know what? They're not the one. Although, I will say this, so because he was he was Pollux right the little one a little short one yeah the little one he wasn't saying a whole lot at the beginning but when he did start talking of the I think we saw three lurkins right over the course of the episode he was the one that I was like that's the best actor of the three of them what I liked about him in his hand gesture for the most holy is there was no belief behind it he like instead of like wiping around his face and then putting his hands up like wings he like kind of up and down and threw like his fists up which i think really bounced well when we found out they weren't good people like they weren't living by the code of these people he's like literally yeah most holy whatever do the thing okay move on and i i want to i want to believe that was an acting choice and that makes it great yeah it's one of those it's one of those things if you make a mistake or you do something weird but you do it on purpose and you're you You made the choice to do it. Then you're a genius. If you didn't, then you're an idiot. Like to say in music, we say once is a mistake, twice is jazz.

[28:49] So to go back to what started this whole thing, like where are Lockley and Gideon? Oh, they're negotiating. And I had a note like, what do you mean negotiating? Are they negotiating?

[29:02] And then, no, they actually were negotiating with a Burkiri. And then the Burkiri gets in there. And Jeff, I'm telling you, it was longer than a split second. I could have sworn it was Bill Mooney playing the Burkiri. I would have sworn it was him. Is he the one? There was someone I thought was played by Bill Mooney. It might have been. I might have thought the same thing that it was the Burkiri. It was the Burkiri. I was like, that's Bill Mooney. That's Bill Mooney. Oh, he's not back as Lanier. He's this new guy, and that's kind of cool that they brought him in to do this role. Like, that's fun. No, it wasn't him at all. But I was like, oh. I just, I found it fun because I thought the same thing or they negotiating this, but every time they meet has nothing to do with the last time they met. Like they're always kind of starting over a little bit, which when you think about like, Hey, we wrote these 13 episodes, we're going to produce them. And knowing it was canceled before it went, they literally like, who cares? Who cares? Just go in and do whatever you want to do. So of the three, three meetings that we've seen with them, three meetings. Okay, are we agreed that the middle one we saw, the conference on Mars, that should be their first meeting? Yes. Right? Because when he saw her in bed, when she got all star-fearied, blowed up, there was some familiarity there. A little bit, right. So that should have been like the second one. You know, he's like, oh, have you ever come to Babylon 5? You know, let's have dinner or whatever. And now we're seeing, oh, I'm Babylon 5. It's a lot more. This is the return of the Jedi of the Gideon Lockley trilogy.

[30:32] And they're going through that. I got to tell you, she tells them like, hey, let's go get dinner. She says, I know a good place for dinner. And I said this. I said, if that place is any other place than her quarters, I'm going to be so disappointed in her. And Jeff, you know what? I am so disappointed in her because it was actually a restaurant. Oh, man. Because we've seen that dinner in her quarters before, and she's not a stranger to taking him there. She's not? No. And I was just...

[31:10] Okay, I'm going to say this. I was so amped up, and I don't mean this in a lewd way. All right? You and I have been on the Sloughly Gideon train since the word go. Oh, 100%. We're like, that's a relationship that needs to happen. I am for that happening, and it works. The way Tracy Scoggins and Gary Cole play off each other, it's incredible. So good. to see them going like 100 miles an hour in this episode in their relationship was I'm I'm so glad that prior to this show ending and getting canceled we got some fireworks in the Gideon Lockley thing you know and we look and here's the thing we didn't see we see it was all like a silhouette or something whatever it's not it's not that like it's not that we saw anything I just in my mind And I need to know that those two are a couple, so to speak, or at least they're coupling.

[32:11] And that relationship could potentially continue or face issues as they go on down the road. I don't care, but still. But they, they, it's not going to face issues because you know what they did? This was the, like, I almost think I should talk about this in the messages portion, but Brent, they communicated with each other and they defined what their relationship is going to be. They had a DTR. They did. But it's so mature and so good. They're going to be just fine. When I watched this the first time, I lost my mind when it finally happened. And that build up when they're like the way the tempo of that scene moved was perfection.

[32:49] It came to a crescendo at the perfect time, and I cheered, and I popped. But what I said, I am a famous anti-shipper. There's no reason for almost anyone in any show to ever get together, in my opinion. It just ruins the show. I'm watching, in my spare time, Abbott Elementary, which is just like this ABC kind of throwaway neat school show. Stop trying to put these two characters together. You've got a great show. Just stop. They used a whole season of it, but in this three episodes, this was earned. It was real and it was, it was, it, it built, it happened. And they were, they tied a bow on it on the end. If anyone's ever going to write an intense romance, this is the model of how to do it. It was just, it was perfect. I mean, I loved it so much. I was so excited. I'm still so excited for them. Like, God, it's great. I'm with you. I'm absolutely with you and I like how they left it you gotta go do you I gotta go do me.

[33:55] And see you when I see you so Jeff I'm I'm in the middle I one of our upcoming episodes in in the next several weeks from when we record this is going to be the autobiography of Jameis and so I've been going through that that that book and he's had a couple relationships including the one with his wife where there was kind of like a look we're gonna have to split because I've got to do my thing and she's got like her kind of thing to do. And I like, I wonder if that was inspired by that at all. I want you to just stick a little pin in that and we're going to come back to it later in our conversation. Yeah. Not like in a couple of weeks, but like tonight. Tonight. Great. Because, and not even in the messages as we're talking about the episode, we're totally going to talk about that. Great. So Lockley and Gideon make a bet. This is great. And they're going through that. And I'm sitting here going, when they kind of got to the terms, I was like, you know what? This is a bet that Gideon does not mind losing. I promise you, if he loses this, he's not going to mind at all. Down payment. This is just a down payment. Right. Right. It was hilarious. So I loved how she played him and just strung him along. You know, as he's just talking about, you know, here's how you got to do this. And here's all you think that. And she's like, yeah, okay. All right, sure. Hey, you want to get something to eat? Just thanks, Jim. Thanks, Liz.

[35:17] What? You played me. And my next note after that was, I told you, Gideon wouldn't mind losing the bet.

[35:23] He was all right with it. So they're sitting there eating that sandwich, right? Which is a call back to the sandwich in a call to an, in a river of souls.

[35:31] Is the same one she was eating there with uh was it really yeah i thought that was such a great like because she's like i love this thing nobody else ever wants to eat it but i love it it was the same thing i did not make that connection i'm glad you did i don't even remember her eating a sandwich in river of souls to be honest with you it's fair there's not a lot i like to remember but here's the thing she tore off half of her sandwich to share with gideon and she still had a whole damn sandwich in her hand there was a point she handed it to him and she's taking a bite and i'm like is this like a cartoon where they rip off part but nothing comes off nothing comes off it was just like oh my gosh that's it was huge oh the the so shortly after that they the guys come in trying to do the hand blasty thing to to go back to what you were saying earlier about the fight choreography and everything there's a barrel and gideon turns around and he does this leap over the barrel oh my god it was it was so oh my it was so goofy i loved it i loved it i was fear for it i'm here for it but oh my word it was it was i i'm i'm gonna amend my statement on horrible fight choreography i bet the choreography was fine it was the camera placement for all like where they had the camera sitting for that leap over the barrel what are you trying to do there were times you could see the face of Gideon's stunt double.

[36:53] Plain as day like it was a total space balls moment oh my well you know what those moments always remind me of and and all right here's your star trek reference there's an episode of tng.

[37:05] Where something's going on down in engineering i don't know and they got to evacuate engineering and so jordy's down there's like all right everybody everybody out everybody out and they they push a button on a wall and like a like a door like comes closing down you're just everybody out everybody out and he's just sitting here looking and the door's got like six feet left to go and he just does this like stop drop and roll like to get underneath the door i'm like what are you doing dude like you could have just ducked and kept moving it was fine but this this this leap reminded me of that it's just so like really you just did that for the leap you did and he could have landed in a superhero pose and it would have just been over the top man, almost as good as uh franklin in the med bay leaping through the door at the last oh yeah yeah yeah that would too that would too for sure for sure for sure my last last note on gideon lockley was the shower scene happens and then it immediately cuts to a shuttle flying into babylon five that's so funny and i was like is this the modern day uh train into a tunnel.

[38:15] Yeah it's like i see you i see you hey while we're talking about b5 and exterior shots of b5 we'll use this as a little bit all right first of all the station looked great right so like just, seeing the excalibur next to babylon 5 i think for the very first time made me realize just how big the excalibur is because you and i have a scope of how big babylon 5 is seeing that right next to it is just like wow the Excalibur is huge it's got that tri-wing thing in the back right and I was thinking as they put it up there I'm like you could put Babylon 5 in between two of those rings that would like bracket it it's just it's so big now lengthwise how how long how long is is the Excalibur it's not five miles no I think it's like it's it's more it's so they said so many kilometers but it was definitely less and you see that really clearly in the side by side shot with them that Babylon 5 is much longer. Yeah. But I just think that the relative size overall was just.

[39:20] Big ship it's a big yeah i think for the first time i've had an appreciation for just how big the excel i've always known it's big we open up on babylon five with chambers and eilerson.

[39:34] And we talked about the whole some things are around for too long and this is a dangerous seedy place in max this was the first time i was just like oh my god is this going to be one of these episodes it's like well in case of trouble i can fling myself into action at a moment's notice on your behalf no no what are you so bad them trying to play max as a tough guy is where i lose max eilerson really man for the first time i bought him i bought him when he was sitting across from mueller but in that moment with chambers i'm just like stop are you hitting on her because if you are you should be punched in the face this is awful yeah no i yeah can we talk about the most uncool thing ever and maybe in all of television that happened in this episode oh do tell i have no idea where you're going with this did you watch the credits the end credits at all no what happened oh oh my god brent what happened what did i miss so we talk about mr kitty right like right like 18 times throughout the whole episode big deal was mr kitty yeah Mr. Kitty died. There's an in-memoriam card that goes up, and it's like, for Mr. Kitty, from like 1980-something to 1999, rested, I'm just like, what the fuck? Are you saying?

[40:54] Build this up with Mr. Kitty this whole time, and then you're just, my heart broke for that cat. I'm just like, what? Do cats live 19 years? That seems like an awful long time. It was 1980-something. I forget whatever it was, but, like, wow. Like, he died with the episode. It's like, no. I didn't even like the cat. I thought it was an ugly cat. Did Rolf kill him? Did JMS? He couldn't kill any kids. So he took out a cat?

[41:28] Straczynski'd the cat? No, he did not. He did not. Because I'm reading his autobiography and JMS has a thing for cats. His dad, on the other hand, which is sick. Yeah, but that is a great segue to where we can talk about the thing. Max Eilerson is J. Michael Straczynski. Okay, you need to explain this. He loves cats. Okay. He takes a lot of almost arrogant level pride in his intelligence and his view and his whatever. What really hit me, though, was this line that Cynthia was saying to Chambers about Max. They'd pound him and he'd come back with some smart remark. Or they'd pound him again and he'd be a smear on the pavement still mouthing off yeah that's.

[42:20] Straczynski yeah i think and he's he's misunderstood the character is misunderstood people think that he's there just for you know one thing but he's actually into deeper stuff he left his wife because of his attachment to his his work and had a couple of times back to Gideon and Lockley, but like those times where he had to like, I got to go. There's this other stuff. I think Max Eilerson is Jim Eglis Traczynski's avatar in the story. I think he was going to tell his story through Max Eilerson. Interesting. And we do know JMS talks about, you know, he, he's basically writes himself into his stories through his characters. So that's an interesting idea, Jeff. Interesting, interesting idea. Do you think JMS, well, I mean, surely he is now, but, you know, can he just go drop 50K on his ex just because? I'm really curious about that, actually. I was, at first when this happened, I was angry with Max. Yeah. Bro, no, don't do this. Like, come on. Mm-hmm. And the fact that she was so entitled. Oh, yeah. She was so angry and entitled. And I'm just like, listen, lady, you're the one that left power down.

[43:41] Power down but he but that story it started with him being like i'll take care of it i'll take care of it and then continued through the episode there was this one moment and this was the moment that i.

[43:56] Connected in a meaningful way with max eilerson and it was near the end he uh says something.

[44:04] You know to cynthia's like you know why would you do this and you know thank you for always do and he says look i've loved three things in my life my work that damned cat and you and then he walks out and as soon as he's out in the corridor this was the moment he leans up against the wall for a second and he just takes that breath like keep walking yeah don't let her see you do this and feel this way and i was just like you sir are i oh my god i can't believe it max eilerson is what so many men should be he's not there fighting or making his case he's just like i love you and i'm always going to love you and i'm always going to be there for you and i'm also not going to put any of me onto you you do your thing and i'm going to take care of you from behind also his wife probably not that great of a person she didn't seem like a good person at all no no but his loyalty to her was and he's even said like he's talking to that rolf guy and he and rolf called him out on it too i was glad that they did that in the episode it's like my wife you just from my wife she's not your wife anymore there but but to him she is yeah max max is a is a is a man of deep faith where he's like you know what our contract might be done but we're still connected and married i'm going to honor i'm going to honor that all the way through and that's the thing that I mean, that's the thing that brings all this bravado out in him.

[45:32] This badassery that Eilerson is just lurking below the surface that really comes across as just sleazy, scummy, whatever, is actually there's so much more there that you and I both knew was lurking beneath the surface. We just didn't know if we'd see it or if it'd come out or anything like that. And there it was. He's a deep individual. He's pained. He had a hard childhood.

[45:58] Like, you know, he didn't learn how to socially interact. I've always seen that as social interactions are for bupkis. But, like, he just cared, you know? And it was just like, oh, I'm so into Max Eilerson after this episode. And I got to tell you, at the end, when she's just, like, yelling at him, like, I can't believe this is going to be my life. I can't believe you only gave him $50,000. and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then she stopped. She's like, look, I'm sorry for yelling at you and all this. And I was like, I don't think you're really sorry for laying into him like that.

[46:33] I think you understand what you are to him and you feel total freedom and total entitlement to him. Like his responsibility is to do this for you. I don't think it's the first time she's done that to him and I'm positive. It won't be the last. No, I don't like her. She's not good for like, like I'm now protective of Max Eilerson. Same. And I'm sorry if you love her, dude, but she's not good for you. You need to get away. You can love her and you can support her. And we're going to talk about boundaries, my friend. And it's not boundaries for you i mean it is boundaries free but you know what i mean like.

[47:07] You're not the one who needs to to not be putting on her they did such a good job like piecing the story together early on when like he goes into her quarters and they're talking she sits down on the couch and he talks to her and then he sits down next to her and he just reaches to brush her arm and doesn't quite touch i didn't catch it till i watched this the second time and he had like a moment on his face this was this in this one in this one single episode i was like this guy has the acting chops to carry this character through now we have 12 episodes that say otherwise but is it okay but why but why jeff what what is different in this episode that was that was not apparent in 12 other episodes and you can't just say it's because jms wrote this episode because he wrote several of the other episodes like what is it that's different at this point it's a great question because what's different is we're seeing the real person who max is yeah and not the character that not the character of max eilerson but the character that max eilerson puts forward as his shield out in the world that's why that's a great question that's great observation yeah This Rolf Mueller guy. I don't know if you've got this. Oh, no, go ahead. I don't think you're going to go where I'm going with this. Go ahead. I don't think so. No, I promise you I'm not. This Rolf Mueller guy, I don't know if this rang for you the way it did for me, but he looked just like Vince McMahon.

[48:37] Vince McMahon. Yes. Oh, my God.

[48:40] Are you serious? Yes. No way.

[48:44] He looked just like him. Like, totally, like, late 90s Vince McMahon. Yes, he did. It's right here. This Rolf guy looks like Vince McMahon. That's incredible. It was so distracting to me the whole time.

[49:01] You gave me 50,000 credits, Max? I can't believe you said that, too. You're fired. You're fired. Before we got on to the video today, I watched a YouTube thing when Bobby Lashley was talking about do-rag Vince McMahon. that happened a little while after i'm just like he looked mueller looks just like this guy oh my word, I can't believe you went there. I cannot believe you did that. That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. I liked this guy. He was a bad guy. Yeah, he was fine. It's one of the better, like, two-bit. Generic, run-of-the-mill, but good. Better than Deuce. I liked him better, you know?

[49:43] This might be the first, like, bad guy that I actually felt potential danger from. Like, when Max is sitting there, like, just kind of laying into him in the nightclub, and he's just sitting back and he's like and like max leaves and he looks at his dudes and he's like all right mr alison let's play the game i got it let's go and then all of a sudden we get a call from like the aunt he's like he just came by and took your cat yeah wow wow you're gonna go get that cat that's a guy who's done his homework right at the end near the end of the episode when the aunt or whoever called again and she's like oh he's back and everything's great she says i gotta go the kids are screaming for dinner were those her kids or max and cynthia's kids no i think they were her kids yeah i i didn't even question that i i absolutely think they were her kids i'd be wild if he had kids i don't yeah i don't think they would have kids i and honestly if if if you're right and max is the stand-in for jms himself he made sure there'd be no kids there's no kids no because i can't wait to talk about that when we get her our uh our our autobiography episode so i know i felt worried because like i was making these notes tying i'm like i gotta save a lot of this stuff for for that episode but this is just such a great example of like we learned this stuff and it lines up perfectly so i have one more note out of this whole deal and it's right at the very end max receives a package and that.

[51:09] Was a big ass package for a postcard a little picture for a postcard that's a picture that's basically what he got that's a big old package for that not only does cynthia disrespect max eilerson she has no respect for the environment right that was way too much tape and packaging universal warming at its finest maybe just email him a picture it was the late 90s we could do that back then like give it a shot.

[51:39] And i'm sorry i said earlier but i guess that was not a cute cat no and it doesn't mean it's not worthy of love or whatever but like they should have put a cute little you know fuzzy, thing and instead it's just like this cat was just literally looking like okay well i guess i'll let you take my picture jeff i have a question for you yeah so throughout all the stuff for this episode, right? Uh, fun stuff, more fun stuff, goofy fight sequences that you minded a whole lot more than I did. Um, yeah. Lockley and Gideon, Eilerson coming to the forefront, Jeff, all that's fine and well. But the real question, what you and I have set out to do with this show since the very beginning is to take that analytical lens that we have gained from talking about other shows that are a little bit more dime story than this one.

[52:34] And looking for messages that are found within it, sci-fi type messages that this genre is uniquely positioned to do, messages that hold up a mirror to society or tell us that things are going to be better in the future or just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Jeff, I am curious, did you find any messages throughout the course of this episode? I found a surprising amount of them, actually. We've talked about some of them a little bit already. What does love really look like for one of them? You know, I think we saw two versions of love in this episode. I think that Gideon and Lockley have a love for each other. It's not necessarily romantic.

[53:20] It's got some romance, some intimacy tied into it. But what made it, what brought me around to it being a love was the conversation they had at the end of defining what their relationship was. I think that so many people, when they come together, come in with preconceived notions or assumptions and they don't discuss them with the other person. So they end up holding things against a person that's not even the person, right? It's like, I've made this agreement with myself and an idea of you of what we're going to be, and you're not that thing, so now I'm mad at you. They didn't do that. They showed respect for each other, respect for their relationship by just laying it out. Hey, this was great. I don't regret doing it, and I can't be what you need me to be. Hey, that's fine. I don't need you to be that. I thought that was incredible, and I think it's a thing that more people need to see and take to heart. And then we saw the other side of love, unrequited love, where Max loves Cynthia so much and is willing to give of himself for no return.

[54:31] Not only is he not going to get a return, he actively works to make sure he doesn't get one. When he walked out and suffered in solitude and silence for that moment, it was just like, he's just going to be there for her. That's just how it's going to be. Again, there's boundaries and conversations and communications that should happen, but I think that we have a really distorted view in contemporary times of what love is, and I thought these were two really good examples of them. And the thing we've talked about in the past that I ascribe to very deeply, but love is more than a feeling. Love is an action. Yeah. Love is a verb. And we saw that acted out as a verb in both of those instances and in really meaningful ways in this episode. Another thing we talked about a little bit was the Lorkins and their moral superiority.

[55:25] I feel like what we saw in this, and this is such a thing that happens in our lives now. Now, there are people, and they're not all religious people, but many of them are, who believe themselves to be above others. And when you think that way, it blinds you to reality. And that's what we saw in the Lorcan's. They had no concept of reality, of what was really going on, the politics, the relationships, the anything. They were just focused on how much better they were than anyone else. And they were so quick to jump to killing Gideon, which, to your point, guarantee you in their holy scriptures, it says you're not supposed to do that. But they're superior, Brent, so they can do that. But that feeling of superiority leads to hate. And it leads to hate in a way we've talked about so often. It dehumanizes, depersonal humanizes how racist that is to say in an intergalactic setting. But they didn't see Gideon as being an equal with them. And so it was okay to kill him. It was justified.

[56:36] It's not okay to do that, but it's not fine. To do that, we saw that here. But then we saw the other side again. We see two sides of things. It's the thing that JMS is excellent at doing in his writing, of just flipping the pancake both ways and letting you see it from different views, which happened in the episode TKO, the pinnacle of season one, by the way. But this other guy was like, no, they're wrong. That's not how it works.

[57:04] Also, we are saints living in paradise. Come and test us. I thought that was incredible. We are both of the Christian faith. There are many people listening to us and watching us that don't believe in a higher power or a God, and that's cool, or they believe in a different one and don't follow the Christian faith. But I'm going to talk about Jesus because that's the one I know about. But Jesus didn't go hang out with the people who were doing things, quote, unquote, right. Jesus hung out with drug dealers and hookers. And if there was such thing in Jerusalem and Israel and stuff back in the day, he'd be on skid row, right? Hanging out with the ne'er-do-wells and the undesirables, putting his faith into action and to the test. And that's what the Lorkans want to do. If you are a person of faith who professes to take care of the needy and the poor and the thing, whatever your faith is or your belief system and you're not actually like out there interacting with people.

[58:05] Undesirable people hookers and drug dealers and whatever else you're not you're not living your faith i thought it was great the lorkins saw that and moved this direction these were great messages the last one i had and it might be my favorite one and i think it's just maybe because i'm close to it and it's a thing i live in a lot of ways but it is this is what lockley said it's a mistake to make assumptions about people you've just met gideon assumed all these things about lockley and And then just started telling her how it is. My note said he was mansplaining walking the Gemba.

[58:41] Gemba being the workplace, right? And it's like, dude, this is her turf. Because they have the relationship I talked about earlier, they were able to joke about it and move forward and actually use it as a way to strengthen their relationship. But if you don't have that kind of chemistry with somebody, that's going to ruin your relationship from go. That person is going to lose respect for you because you made assumptions about how they should do things and then took it upon yourself to tell them how to do it. Uncool. Uncool to do that. Not only, Brent, was this an incredibly fun, entertaining, and great episode, but it was replete with amazing messages that frankly blew me away, which I get to talk about and did. You my friend have the i'm gonna say enviable task this time i was talking about just how great and fun this episode was because you get to finalize this is gonna be it set in stone objectively correct and immutable ranking of the entire series of crusade currently i'm gonna name off our top five uh frankly be weird to me if it didn't land in here but um you get to place this episode where it lands in the ranking. And number five, we have appearances and other deceits.

[59:54] Number four is the path of sorrows. Three is war zone. Number two, the needs of earth. And in the top spot for now, at least the long road, Brent, where do the rules of the game land? Jeff, you know what makes the top five episode a top five episode? What's that? Not only is it a good episode, a fun episode to watch, but it's also an episode that does have those messages in it, that does have something to say that presents that allegory to us in a certain way.

[1:00:27] And that's when a show really, really takes off. Now, you and I have often said, you know, some of the best episodes of Star Trek are ones that have no messages in them whatsoever. It's just a good episode. Some of the absolute worst episodes of Star Trek are ones that have these big, deep, heavy messages. But the very best, the very best are the ones that marry those two ideas together. And just give you something to chew on through the whole, like, that leaves you really thinking about that episode as it goes on. I'm glad you found all those messages. You know, this is one of those episodes that I say, instead of having, like, a single cannon shot to the heart of a message, it's just like, hey, here's this one. And here's this one. And here's this one. And here's this one. And I used to really kind of poo-poo that a little bit. But I still like it. I like what they, like, hey, let's just throw this one out there. and we'll throw this one out there, and they're all a part of it. So I love that you did that. This was also a fun episode to watch. I would watch this episode again and eat up every single moment of it, even the cheesy barrel roll thing that happens. So I liked it. You're absolutely right. This is going to find itself in the top five, but the question is where.

[1:01:38] Unfortunately, that means by default this is going to push out appearances and other deceits, and I just looked back at my notes on appearances and other deceits, and it says in my opening slot, this is not going to be a top five episode. Wow. It has been so far, but you know what? It's not now. So it will be a top six episode, though, because I really, really liked that episode. Path of Sorrows is such a heavy episode. It's not an episode I want to watch again. But then I looked at Warzone, that episode that JMS hated, didn't even want to do it. They forced him into it. And you and I were like, it's a pretty damn good episode for one you didn't want to write.

[1:02:17] And then I look at Needs of the Earth. That's the one where Doreena and Gideon went down on that mission to some planet, whatever, and they just had the whole thing going on, you know, and it was such a great episode, so fun, and so many things going on, and then there's the long road, and Jeff, I'm almost sad that we saw the long road second, because it's just maintained such a high standard for us, I think, for the whole show. I will tell you, long road is going to stay as number one. It's going to stay as number one. It really is. So the question is, is does this become our new number two or is this our new number three or is it the new number four? Because it's not going to be the new number five. Okay. And when I look at this, Jeff, this one right here for me between needs of earth and war zone, man, I like them. I really do. I like them both, but I think needs of earth is going to edge this one out for me. Just, just by a hair. So this falls into our brand new number three spot rules of the game. Wow. Okay. And you could convince me to push this one up one, but that's where I'm going to leave this one for now. Not where I would put it. It's not a bad spot for it. But, I mean, for God's sake, man. Woo-hoo.

[1:03:30] I rest my case. I'm sorry. You're not going to get better than the Technomage episode. It's not going to go up. Would you put it number one? I would. Is that you'd put it number one? Yeah. I struggled with it with the number two. And like I said, I looked back at the notes. I was like, I really liked that episode, too. So, yeah, like I said, you could fight me for being number two. It's not going to go up number one for me. Golden Dragon, Techno Mage, Galen with old Techno Mage. See, Jeff, that was just a perfect episode all the way around, man. It was pretty great. I just challenge you to watch. I'll give you... Two scenes uh okay watch the barrel roll in this and then watch the golden dragon in the long road and you tell me which one is more fun to watch it's the barrel roll yeah that golden dragon was not great that was not not the effect but the but the whole premise behind it we're gonna throw a golden dragon oh my god come on just ridiculous it's techno mages it's techno mages come on And it's the old Technomanage, like a golden dragon. I know exactly who that is. Only one man uses the golden dragon. Only one man dares give me the raspberry. I was going to say the same thing.

[1:04:50] All right, so number three is what you're saying? You know what? I'll split the difference with you. This will be our new number two. I can live with that. Oh, Brent, I'm about to say something that's going to hurt. What's that? We're done with Crusade. I'm sad. Yeah. I'm sad. I'm genuinely sad. I have sadness. I have sadness that's rolling into anger. Yeah. And then rolling back into sadness. It's just, it's dumb that this thing got canceled. It's just dumb. It is. It is. I'll say this though.

[1:05:20] Like knowing that the show got canceled and knowing that this is, that it's just going to end and it's not gonna, whatever. There is a piece of me that's like, I'm glad to have made this journey. I'm glad, knowing that it will never end. And I'm glad to be here at the spot. We weren't going to be here. No. Right? When we started this project, we weren't going to be here. And, I mean, thank the maker we are. Yeah. So programming note for people, like we're done with Crusade. And we're, God, we're almost done with the first time, just all in all. So I just want to kind of go over really quick what the next couple of weeks are going to look like for us. We're going to finish out the movies. There are three more left. And I understand one of them. Some people don't call a movie, but there's three more specials that we're going to watch. Then we're going to talk about becoming Superman, JMS's autobiography, which we've been teasing throughout this episode. And then we're going to have a Herculean task as we're going to do a wrap-up of the whole enchilada. The whole franchise. I'm a little nervous about that.

[1:06:28] Seemed like such a good idea. It was good. All right, what's next? But we're going to dive in next week back into the movies, and we're going to watch Legend of the Rangers for the first time. Brent, do we want to play our game with the movies? Do we want to keep that going? Might as well. I mean, we did it. We did it for the other movies riding in. So that's what I was saying. I was like, yeah, this will be the last time. Actually, no, maybe not because we still have the movies to go. We got three things. We got three things left, and we will have completed the entire Babylon 5 franchise, Jeff. I don't know how I feel about that. Outside of the novels. I know there's still the novels out there, folks, but I'm talking what's on screen. I'm so excited for the second time, but also like it's just sad. Endings are sad. They're new beginnings, but they're also sad. You know what, though? Without the ending the rest of it wouldn't mean anything there you go the ending is what gives it all purpose it's what gives it all worth let's talk about that worth and value brand, what do you think this uh movie legends of the rangers legend of the rangers is going to be about well i i feel like this is going to be about the rangers you think maybe um yeah, It could be their origin story, Jeff, the legend of the Rangers. But then that would go all the way back to like Valen and all that kind of stuff.

[1:07:44] Because here's the thing. And this is what's really neat is you could go back and pick a ranger from any point in history. Because we know they didn't just start when Sinclair came back around. They've been around. You could pick any point in history. And at which point a ranger had some awesome adventure that became like a legendary thing. And tell that story. Like it could be at, it could be at any point.

[1:08:09] So if it's, that's what I'm gonna go with. If it's not the origin story and I doubt it's the origin story, I think it's just, you know, the legend of Robin Hood, the legend of so-and-so, the legend, this is the legend of the, of the Rangers. Like, or the legend. Yeah. Legend of the Rangers. He is their Zorro. He's, he's their guy that they look to, to be awesome. That's not named Balan. I want it. I want it to be Balan. Right. Right, and the origin story and everything, but O'Hare is not going to be acting in this. I'm quite sure. We're not going to go back. And at first I thought it was going to be just, hey, here's some Rangers, and we're going to do Ranger stuff, and we're going to talk about our origins and things like that. But as you were talking, totally changing my prediction. Brent, legend of the Rangers is going to move us into the future. We're going to move to Brother Alwyn. I was just thinking that. I was just thinking that when you said future. We're going to see the Rangers reborn. We're going to actually get a little examination of the world around deconstruction of falling stars. Interesting. That's going to be my prediction. And I need to write that down on a thing. So I remember it next week.

[1:09:23] We'll find out next week what it's going to be about. I'm excited. I'm excited for all of you to join us as we do that. Thank you for joining us for this. Thank you for being with us through crusade. It's been awesome to share this with all of you. If you haven't already, please subscribe. That way you won't miss anything else that we put out. We've got some cool things coming after we get through the first time on this. Leave us a rating and review. Do all those things. But the thing I want to specifically ask you to do is to please share this show with someone who is either in love with Babylon 5, in love with Crusade, or someone like Brent and me here need to watch it for the first time. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to close out Crusade. Until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yeah. What's up? You know, I heard about you. Oh, yeah. Hey, you're some kind of big shot, huh? Big brainy guy. Actually, the term is prodigy. Seven letters, three syllables. Oh, I wouldn't say prodigy. No? No. Go with nerd. Nerd. Nerdy, nerdy, nerdy, nerdy, nerd. Nerd. Indeed. Where are you going? I don't know.