The War Prayer | For the Second Time

[0:00] Music.

[0:22] Into it jack the year is 2025 the name of the podcast babylon 5 for the second time welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters but then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things we didn't know about the first time around. And this time around, guess what we're still doing? Searching for those sci-fi messages, Jeff. You know, those things that hold up a mirror to society, give us hope that things can be better in the future, tell us how to be better human beings to one another. All that sort of stuff that we do as, you know, sci-fi podcasters. And heads up warning red alert spoiler alert from this moment forward Jeff and I could be talking about anything from Babylon 5 from any point in the show or in the franchise anywhere along the timeline and all spoilers are on the table so if you have not watched this incredible series yet please stop listening to this right now don't stop just pause because that means you're going to come back stop go watch the series join us join jeff and i for our first watch where we go through that join because that was a great show is a great show it's still there it's a great show.

[1:50] And uh catch back up to us when you get through the show because we could talk about anything from this point forward you have been warned today we're watching the war prayer for the second time looking for the things that we missed the first time around i remember the first time we watched this one brent uh i loved i think everything about this episode yeah i the big thing i can remember about it and we like both freaked out on our watches but we watched the episode whatever that's cool and then we'd watch it a second time for notes and pay attention to the credits and dc fontana what this was her episode this is her episode these i remember freaking out when i saw dc fontana's name and i remember people being mad that i saw her name in the credits as if that was some big spoiler and I'm like no that just made me enjoy the episode more perhaps more than it actually deserved I don't know maybe not we'll find out right I I don't remember this episode I remember nothing about this episode so this could be a surprise to me she is not the one.

[2:53] Yet. She doesn't have hair yet. Well, one thing that I can tell you about the first time we watched it, uh, we loved and quote adored this episode. Those are our words. Yeah. Really? Okay. Adore. This was, uh, I think you said you adored it. We absolutely gushed over DC Fontana. We probably spent a third of the entire episode talking about DC Fontana. We were very excited. Okay. Well, then, Brent, it's time for us to watch the War Prayer for the second time right now. If you're joining us for the first time ever, welcome. It's awesome to have you here. I strongly recommend clicking the little linker thing that's going to go right up there and go watch our first time reaction because you're going to understand where we're coming from and watching this. Just open another tab, click that, watch it come back. This is going to take you a couple of minutes, a little break out of your day.

[3:52] After that, when you come back, we're going to watch the episode right here, right now. On YouTube, you're going to see our reaction to that. And if you want to see our entire full unedited experience, you can head over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon 5 first, the number 5 and the word first. And if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting app, we're going to meet you on the other side after the reaction where Jeff and I are going to talk about our thoughts from this episode, new and old. We're going to share any new messages that we might have uncovered and, you know, really see how this fits in the overall pantheon. That's not the right word. Jeff, what's the right word? The overall lore canon, the overall canon that is Babylon 5. So, Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. Life's very simpler then. Do you regret the choices that you made?

[4:50] To be here sometimes that line right there totally like flew over my head the first time but think about it like we're about to find out like we see it here but like these are real friends you know that like know each other well she knows delen's arc the choices that she's had to make what she's had to do to get here like in that one line but while you're talking about that he knows she knows her arc to put that in context from her arc as an acolyte and a person training in temple or whatever she had to do to becoming ducat's like personal apprentice aid whatever um to replace you know going through the whole um earth minbari war as a new great council member to even what led her to leave the not leave the great council but to physically become the ambassador to Babylon five on behalf of the Minbari. Like that's what she knows and has kind of been there to observe with Dylan. Lanier wasn't linear. Just got here. Yeah. They just met a week ago. Right. Right. Only sometimes you, I would be nothing other than what I am. I still say that blue thing on the top of their head. It's been a long day. It looks like the avatar.

[6:05] No, it is just that I have another performance in the morning. And after that, I must prepare for my journey to earth. I hope the humans, We never see this lady ever again. We don't. For such a great... I shall retire to a... Could she not have showed up for the wedding? Bridesmaid? That would have been great. Something? Just a guest with a gift? Like, come on. I really like them as friends. You know what I mean? Yeah. I buy this. They have a real connection. They have real chemistry. You know, the chemistry between these two immediately, though, is palpable. Like, this feels like these are two very old friends. I remember the first time we watched it, we questioned the nature of their relationship. We thought there might have been... A little sexual tension? Yeah, sexual tension, as we are looking for in some other characters. But watching it this time, this is just, like, for reals friends. Yeah. Wow. We had, like, some Master Shredder, you know, foot clamp. Oh! Stay away from Earth!

[7:12] Oh that's not good did that see the thing all he did was stamper that's not a brand it was the dawn of the third well it went ready so it's like there was a thing so i mean i'm sorry like this is an outrage commander an outrage xiaomayan is regarded as a cultural treasure by my people this brutal attack affects not only her person but this i got it xiaomayan is the Taylor Swift of Minbar. Ooh. If you consider Taylor Swift to be a poet and cultural icon and musician. A cultural treasure, Jeff. If you consider her to be. But I think Shawmayan is a little more.

[7:55] I don't want to say upper crusty than Taylor Swift, but a little more intellectual, a little more intellectual than what Taylor Swift produces. And I'm not saying that it's bad. I'm just saying it's different. So she's the Beyonce of Minbar. Ooh, maybe. The country artist, Grammy Award winning country artist, Beyonce. The Carrie Underwood. No, so you know, a cultural treasure. Okay. All right. Soul of my entire race. We'll get whoever's responsible, I promise you. Will your promises take away my own state? We have Swifties, they have Mayanis. Her humiliation. I told her she should have an escort during her stay. She refused. Mayan could not conceive of anyone that should harm. And there was a time, Mr. Garibaldi, when one could walk through Green Sector without need of escort. I assure you, we're doing everything we can to correct that ambassador. You can walk down Green Sector. Then you are required to do better, Commander. Much better. Oh.

[8:49] She'd never talk to John like that. This is the sixth attack on a prominent alien in less than two weeks, all with the same M.O. Commander Sinclair, I have just been informed of the latest atrocity committed by your people. My people did not attack Shaul Mayan. Nope. The rest assured, whoever did will be found and punished to the full extent of the law. Look at that look. I have no special love for the Minbaris. Sorry. Great, great message right here. A person is not responsible for the actions of other people who happen to be of their same whatever race, skin color, hair color, nationality, uh, whatever, whatever. Like I'm not responsible for the actions of that guy over there just because we both happen to be born on the side of the Atlantic ocean. Capturing that as one of our messages to pick up because 100 percent they are their poets but i warn you commander if any non is harmed in this manner there will be bloody retribution and i warn you ambassador any disruption of babylon 5 will be dealt with even if i have to throw the entire narn population into the brig now if you'll excuse me i like that also because he's like i don't care if it's been barry narn or whatever oh look at that weird brenton's when did the legend this thing on her forehead humanoid alien she's trying I'm going to do it to make her feel better. She just did it to herself. Me too. That and the pain.

[10:10] See, look, she even sounds like Dillon. She's got this weird accent and everything. Is there anyone on the station who might have a reason to holland? Mr. Garibaldi, I create and perform Tila, poem songs that attempt to recall old memories and prompt new ideas. While a number of them have provoked discussions of some heat. She's a folk singer. I have never before been stabbed and branded. There you go. Thank you for your time. So the important plot point there is that she could not see them, right? that comes up throughout the episode. It is a lesson. This is big, too. One that should not be forgotten.

[10:47] Scars tell stories, and those stories are often important. Babylon controlled a centauri liner carbo. We'll have someone waiting at this end to take custody of the detainees. And here's Scorpio from General Hospital. It's been eight years, Malcolm. What are you doing on Babylon 5? I'm looking for something. Something I never stopped wanting. I have to go. I have duties. Okay, I forget. Is this ex-husband or ex-boyfriend? Boyfriend. Judy first. That's right. Enjoy your stay. It's a god. Kids. My dear, beautiful children, consider for a moment what you are doing. For a thousand years, marriages have been arranged among our people. Marriages which meld the noble houses together and keep the fabric of the Republic strong. This is how we've always done it. So it's how we should keep doing it. His marriages call for sacrifice. Great sacrifice.

[11:41] But we make this sacrifice. I'm going to be that guy. Hold on. No, absolutely you have to. Absolutely. Here, I'm going to go full screen on this thing. Nice job. Here's what I love about the timing of that, too. They call for sacrifice, and then we see the three wives. It almost looks like the same person. I was going to say, those are all the same. Just from a different angle. great sacrifice great sacrifice as he points at him make this sacrifice because this is what it means to be centaur if you deny this tradition you lose the very thing which makes you what you are but it's so unfair if you ask me they got the right idea it's about time when human beings stood up for our own rights damn aliens are ruining everything for us welcome for carrying a legal weapon i promise you i've had this conversation what the hell is this crap people in my family some people i don't like your attitude and if the blood on that toothpick of yours matches my odds i'll give you over them in barry and let them play dice with your eyeballs i don't know what's worse damn aliens or the traitors who suck up to them over their own kind, get them out of here ben over in the chat makes a really good point that i i agree with after watching the end of that he says uh i actually think this is fantastic acting because he's saying rehearsed lines like he's just spitting the bullet points out and he gets a lot more realistic there at the end that's a really good point yeah.

[13:08] If you also want to make these chat comments, you can just go to our Patreon page. Council Chambers get to join us for our tapings. Oh, this is going to be where they explain the Kosh thing, I think. I hope so.

[13:22] Ambassador Kha. It's watching the Guardian. Isn't that a deep space nine view screen? There have been several recent attacks on non-humanoids. We take no interest in the affairs of ours. Dude, do you know what it takes for him to talk? You got to be patient. Kosh wears an encounter suit to protect him from our atmosphere so how did the poison get into his system his hand should have been completely covered vorlons are very secretive they don't want anyone to know what they look like what they breathe or how their biology works i mean who knows how much that suit is really necessary and how much is just camouflage to keep us from seeing what's inside ding ding ding ding ding ding ding right that's what it is that suit's not necessary It's only to keep hidden what's inside. You know, he said that this was a film for Parliament of Dreams and they put it in here. This is seamless, right? Because they just had the scene there. He talked about give us a hand. He's like, I had a conversation that made me think of this. But this conversation, too, about seeing who you really are or camouflaging fits in perfect with this whole home guard thing.

[14:27] Do you show up as who you are or do you camouflage and hide because you aren't, you know, earth first or whatever? Just to be clear, I don't know that JMS said that the scene was filmed for Parliament of Dreams as much as it was written. And they wanted to shoot it there, but they had to cut it and they moved it into this episode. I'm not sure. I don't I don't know that, but it could go either way. So, yeah, but it just yeah, it fits perfectly. Dr. Ben Kyle, who saved Kosh's life. Since he's bound by a doctor's oath of confidentiality, he never told me what he saw when he opened that encounter suit. Strangely enough, right after that, he was transferred to Earth to work directly with the president. And our first telepath, Lita Alexander, the only member of the Psycor to scan a Vorlon, was transferred back a week later. This is great continuity, too. I don't know. So many other shows would just forget about it, you know. Okay, so that right there clearly was addressing it. But it did not answer the plot hole. No. Outside of saying, yeah, we acknowledge that. And the only one who could possibly know is that guy. And he's not here anymore.

[15:31] Like, so it's a, yeah, we're not going to actually tell you what it was or address it. Just shut up and let's move on. We talk about when you're in front of people or you're broadcasting or whatever and there's something wrong, right? Like, oh, my voice is scratchy or I've got this huge pimple on my forehead. You just call it out, right? You just say the thing. Hey, everybody, I see the thing. There it is. I hear the thing. That's what almost this is. Hey, yeah, you're right. We don't know how it worked. We see it. Move on. I never wanted to let you go. I feel the same today. Malcolm, I'm still committed to my career and you know what that means. And a bond was got a different earring in mm-hmm which is uh why i'm going into business here what i do believe this is the very first time i've ever surprised you but you're not serious are you absolutely i don't think that's surprise as much as secured an office and not in a good way well i need a few more clients and she's got earrings on both ears help me with that, The important thing is that we'll be together again, right? She's like, oh, she's give me somebody on the inside up in the CNC. Help a brother out a little bit. The virtual, the digital scenic artists that worked on this episode of Babylon five, because this shot, this background scene here is gorgeous. Agreed. This is beautiful.

[16:54] And of course, I have that generic park bench there. Right. Hey, invisibility cloaks. Yeah. It's a big part of the show that, you know, never, never comes up again. Well, they first tried the change. The IT beverted! Kieran! Hurry up! Let's get out of here! Medical emergency. Emergency transport. Boys in a cone. Oh, wrong show. Jurassic wound. PBG at close range. We can no longer stand. Yeah, I'm with Ben here. I like when you weave together your aviants. We must fight back with every means at our disposal. He's right! Is there some problem at best? Problem indeed! Eight non-humans brutally attacked in the space of two weeks! And you have yet to make even a single arrest! Jakarta's kind of a jerk, man. I want you out of here, Commander. Now! So much for Babylon 5's highly vaunted. Well, an arrest has just been made, Jakar. Right. Giving you exactly what you asked for. Yeah.

[18:21] This is what happens, Jeff, when you incite people to us versus them. Uh-huh, exactly. When you relegate people, I say it all the time, when you relegate people to whatever their thing is that describes them. You get this. This is what you get. Now, truthfully, this dude kind of maybe deserved to be beat up. I feel like I probably shouldn't say that. But he probably kind of deserved a pop or two. I'm still a little redneck enough that I'm like, yeah, give him a good one. I'd say, an innocent man didn't just get beat up.

[18:54] Right. Not innocent. Maybe he doesn't have guilty. what did this guy do though he has but he's entitled to his beliefs isn't he yeah even if they're bigoted and they're wrong and whatever he's still entitled to his personal private beliefs he's i don't know that he's actually done anything wrong a weapons charge i think he said yeah with whatever i do want to say that like there's a second during that scene where i thought to myself oh my gosh this is taking forever are they stretching are they filling time but i think it's important for it to be long because like that's how much emotion there is and ben i could not agree more this is the argument i make so often uh you know he probably does deserve it but it's uh just gonna make his racism even stronger yeah it's that paradox of it all and that's you know i talk so often about like when people fight hate with hate that it never solves it it just makes it worse and oh uh esther right season five core is mother core is father it's Bester and Zack, again, it's the other side of the coin.

[19:53] But Zack just proves everything right that Bester just said. It makes the hate even worse. Yep. You're not wrong. If he senses I'm here, you're a cover. I know it. Can't you do something about it, Ambassador? The power of my love is so strong. There's nothing you can do here. Ambassador, I have traveled far and seen much. Don't you know it? And what I have seen tells me that all sentient beings are best defined by their capacity and their need for love. And she will learn to live without it. As you did. Yeah, he felt that. He felt that big. With Born to the Purple, back to that, he's in a state of reflection. Who am I? What was I? What do I want to be? And I think that opened him up just enough that if Born to the Purple hadn't happened and she said that to him, He probably would have had some snarky comeback to it. He's open a little bit and it hit alien ambassadors setting policy for humans.

[20:58] Alien workers taking jobs from human beings in human criminals those are our jobs decent people right so that's the recruitment pitch a man can change a lot in eight years there's no reason you should have known exactly what is it you wanted me to do commander introduce me tell him i'm not happy about all these aliens forcing themselves on earth groups like this always like to recruit friends in high places if they accept me it could give us a chance to nail them all before they do any more damage on one condition we were so name it oh i want to be there when you take them down yeah we were so hard on sinclair there's a diplomatic reception of the council chambers tonight yeah i love him in this episode that scene right there he's like i'm gonna you know what gloves off i'm gonna play dirty let's do this i want my hands on him and ivanova here's the thing with Ivanova that I just thought of too. When you take him down, I want to be there. Hey, Sheridan, when the big battle with Earth happens, I want to be there.

[21:56] Like she has that drive and we see, I know we're going to see it a couple more times with that thing. Like she wants to be in the thing. And what's interesting, I don't know enough to really speak on it, but I find it interesting that Garibaldi is not asking for that, right? Dr. Franklin isn't asking for that it's the woman on the team who has to say also i want to be there yeah like it has to go and advocate for herself that way yeah real quick before you started though you pointed out a good thing about um michael o'hare and his performance and and what's going on here and certainly the first time we go through it i felt very much about michael o'hare's performance the same way i feel about avery brooks's performance in the first couple seasons of deep space nine wooden stoic unbelievable forced not good i'm sorry avery brooks in those first couple of seasons of babylon five nanah visitor first couple seasons babylon five there are there are ways that they deliver certain lines that you just go oh deep space nine what did i say he's a babylon five but that's okay i meant you're right you know what i mean right totally agree and and and so any criticisms i had michael harrow really felt like they were just in that line of like.

[23:09] Early season stuff feels very you know um i'd never felt that way about patrick stewart though i will tell you that yeah did feel that way about michael dorn a few times did feel that way brett marina seared us a few times anyway uh felt that way every single time about scott bacula.

[23:30] Anyway my point in bringing that up certainly as harsh as we got on michael o'hare and we even got to the spot we found out about his issue and we're like hey listen he's going to be off limits we'll just keep our comments to jeffrey sinclair and not not worry about that i will say what are we in seven episodes now yeah i am really enjoying michael o'hare and the jeffrey sinclair sinclair character for whatever reason they feel more fleshed out they feel more full it seems better now maybe we haven't gotten to the to the rough bumps in the roads just yet but i can see how as a person who has watched this show multiple times that when you see somebody come in who says anything negative against michael o'hare or his performance or anything regardless of his issues because you're going he's actually really good like i kind of been interested to see what would happen if he would have stuck around for three four five seasons like i love i love john sheridan bruce box lightener is is a goat type captain to me like he's up there yeah mount rush more type dude right but i'd really love to have seen what could have happened with this guy because i'm digging him as an actor not my impression the first time around though exactly and there's a change for me right there in the chat becky uh says you felt that way about scott bacula because you were correct that is absolutely correct becky i was right and am and still.

[24:56] Wait till we get to avalon all right i am then everybody's waiting for us to get to avalon, i am too actually you you you were wrong what oh this is my cousin and aria wanted to be together because they love each other now would that have destroyed the great centauri republic we cannot he's back to that damn tradition hearing me die because our glorious tradition values wealth and power over love my shoes.

[25:26] Excuse me something my father said he was old sorry i gotta stop this is not this is not about londo this is about veer right now yeah how often did you and i talk about the journey of veer and here we are seven episodes in and we're seeing veer go to him struggle with him and go you're you're wrong right yeah like oh my god where is this backbone coming from we don't see this until he goes ninjitsu fruit ninja on a fruit stand later on in season five or four or whatever it was he stabs cartagia in the neck man like gee and here's.

[26:05] Very you're wrong can you imagine lanier saying that to to uh dylan right now oh gosh if he did he'd be like this you are maybe a little not right satay the only one that i could see really i could see ivanova saying that to Sinclair but you know who you could really say it oh Natath yeah she's not gonna say you're wrong she's gonna you're wrong you're dumb you're ugly and you smell bad too like but what I love about it like to your point yeah the acting that Stephen first brought in yeah wrong he was like afraid to do it and we've we've asked about this a couple times and I think that I don't know I feel like we've heard some of this answer but how much did steven first know about the arc of veer did he know where he was gonna land yeah because like these moments are few and far between at this point of him getting that backbone and standing up to londo and acting as his conscience was he did he have this in mind or was he just acting off the page my shoes are too tight and i have forgotten how to dance.

[27:08] I don't understand you will you know what's great about this let's talk about veer no let's talk about veer veer comes in mad pissed off do you know how many times he's rehearsed this whole speech in his head before he got here in front of londo right in front of a mirror everything talking it out as he's walking down the hallway right and he comes in he lays into londo and all of a sudden veer has the the the cognitive presence to look up and see that londo is suffering is damn near crying himself and veer doesn't just back off he leans in he's in space what's going on are you like veer turns around and shows immediate compassion for londo this guy he's trying to lay into oh my gosh that's a little thing incredible full thing we call emotional intelligence thank you dc fontana you're awesome nor should you hey jeff you know what i adore this episode yeah this is such a great episode all the way around so much on this episode to chew on yeah the recent attacks on non-humans they're afraid they'll be next whatever they are i served on the line and we had a motto there the only good alien is a dead alien it's true then it's true now the job description says i have to play diplomat it doesn't mean i have to like it honestly i could hear that coming out of sheridan's mouth too this this whole play i could absolutely see coming out of Sheridan's mouth. Were you in the war, Biggs?

[28:36] Well, no, I missed it. Get rid of alien influences. Get rid of aliens. Put Earth first. Get rid of them.

[28:43] We must get back to our roots. Let humans be humans.

[28:52] Who's we? They give it up, buddy. Dude, they're great. Friends of mine. So good. And perhaps soon of yours. Of course, we must be discreet. Not every human agrees with our stance. So I'd like a small gesture to show where your sentiments lie. What sort of gesture? Something to put every alien on this station in their place. To us he played that very well that was disgusting i know it's close about the recent violence against aliens on board and you'll be relieved to know there is no longer any danger good you've arrested the criminals but why weren't we informed mr garibaldi we have good reason to believe the perpetrators have fled back to earth naturally we've alerted earth force there then you have identified them i'm afraid that information is classified at the moment why is it classified I think we are pouch links, Commander. Pouch links. Pouch links. How do you believe that these humans are simply gone? I, for one, do not accept a word of it. Neither do I. Believe whatever you like. Is that a Brickiri? The fact is, the investigation is... Is that a long-haired Brickiri? Thank you. Maybe. Very passionate. You will study our culture, learning all you can of it. Then, when you are old enough, And Dilla will give you permission to decide for yourselves whom you wish to marry. Even if it's only for love?

[30:14] If you insist. That should be a great gif right there. If you insist. Right. With his hair flopping. Ambassador, why? You are still children. Children should be allowed to dance. But not necessarily with each other. Always leave room for the great makers. Leave room for the Holy Ghost, guys. Come on now. We're entering cargo bay five. Oh, there's Garibaldi with his way too thick flak jacket. Here's our loyalty test. Dude, they're about to get shanked. If I'm Sinclair and Ivana right now, I'm thinking I'm about to get shanked. Oh, they're here, Commander. Such a lost opportunity with this. Here's a drop. Activate the jammer. Alvarez on scan. There'll be a mass assassination. We'll take out the four major ambassadors stationed here. Malari, Delenn, Jakar, and Kosh, Kosh. Deaths will be a signal.

[31:14] The scale of it, I mean, you would need hundreds of people. Well, as Alvarez said, we've got friends everywhere. Clear it out, clear it out, coming through, coming through. Like friends out here at the Zocalo who can watch these guys running through the station? Yeah. Get us into the ambassadorial, wing it off the station undetected after we've finished. Then there's just one more thing. I call it a little. Time to bring somebody out and tell them to shoot them, right? Yep, I'll buy. Commander, please. I don't know what these... Shut up! Kill it. No, please. Kill it. Come on, kill it. You said it yourself. Good aliens are dead one. Have mercy on me, good aliens. Okay. That was the fight, the punch we made. Let me reenact that.

[32:14] Like he didn't even like recall like back up like he didn't he didn't you know load and then go get it like oh now you're here security you already got this thing he's all sweaty, avonema and sinclair haven't even broken a sweat like you all right they're like shower fresh right now so the thing that like just me about this scene it got me the first time it gets me now time and again we have friends everywhere.

[32:43] Friends everywhere. Oh, we're growing movement. We're all this stuff and literally never again. Right. And I get like, I was really focused on whatever happened to home guard, home guard. But even here in America, there are multiple gross groups that have done horrible things. So it's not like the one, right. But right. Right. Nothing with the blacklight camouflage ever comes up again. Nothing with, we've got people in high places, nothing. I mean, they have people in high places they have the vice president at this point right but he's not home guard necessarily i don't know i feel like this built things up in a way that well let me back off of that a little bit it built things up in a very specific way that paid off generally right all the things they said happened but they made it sound like home guard has people everywhere and is doing this thing and it just never never came to to fruition but dropping the thread on those camouflage black light camouflage things that was a fan of dropping the gravity rings they should have kept like this should have had something into the into the future but i'm i'm i'm okay with dropping the changeling nets i'm okay with dropping the gravity rings um the invisibility thing is cool though yeah like that could have stayed even if it's like you know and there's over in our council chambers chat there's a lot of talk about the the the effect they used from them coming out was the same one or similar, at least, to what we'll see with the shadows later.

[34:07] So it would have been so cool if there was, I mean, even just a mention that there was some shadow tech, like these blacklight camouflage things.

[34:14] It could have been a line somewhere, but leaving it behind was unfortunate. Such great hatred for so little real reason. It seems incomprehensible to me. Human ways are often unfathomable, but in time, one learns to live with them. if one has an exceedingly strong constitution. What kind of a human are you? Side. Fan. This is great. I found many of these people to be more human than you and your kind, but I don't suppose you'd understand that. I don't know you anymore. It's also a very speciesist thing to say, but the sentiment is there.

[34:55] I'm not so sure being human is a compliment. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I'm not going to denigrate humanity or anything like that. That's – you're right. The sentiment is there and well noted, which I think is great. So anyway. Brent, we just finished watching War Prayer for the second time. What do you got coming off of that? I do adore this episode. Yeah. This is an episode we could chew on for weeks on end as podcasters, especially looking at messages, just messages alone, like forget everything else. But I think what I find myself coming out of this episode, this viewing is having a greater appreciation for our characters in light of their long-term story arc.

[35:49] All right. And we, and we talked about it. Like we know what happens with Sinclair and, and where he goes and how everything gets cut short. But this episode made me want to go, well, what if we actually had the other four years with Sinclair? What could have happened? Cause there's some good stuff happening here, especially being portrayed by Michael O'Hare. Exactly. Right. Um, watching Londo, we talked about this at the top of the show, Londo, like this is the episode that makes us care for him. And this is the episode that really gets us on his side and makes us be like, yeah, Londo, like you've seen how crappy that is. And this is the way you should be. The sheer look of giddiness on his face when he's telling those two kids about his cousin and what he's going to be able to do. Oh, man. Like, let's go. And how much this makes the tragedy of Londo Malari and the subsequent redemption of Londo Malari mean so much more than it ever would have if this episode did not exist. Because it's this episode that really puts us in that frame of mind with Londo. This is the episode we quoted a hundred and episodes later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right.

[37:05] And then honestly, finally, Veer. Yeah. You know, why watching this whole piece, we talked about a little bit during the, during the show, like, like here is veer who goes on an incredible, incredible story arc as a character throughout the course of the show. Right.

[37:20] And this is the point of the show where he's, he's still very timid and he's very demure and he's, he's very subservient to Londo and he's, he's kind of goofy and he's playing the video games and he's not talking right. And his hair is all wispy and weird and all that sort of stuff. And we know where Veer ends up. Yeah. Future emperor of the empire. Right. The guy who takes out Cartesia, the guy who, who assassinates a fruit stand, the guy who runs an underground for, for Narn.

[37:54] Exactly like that veer the the guy who becomes the sole minbari representative on babylon five do you know the chutzpah that had to take to stay there right as this centauri yeah yeah he he we opened the mission on minbar like he yeah really when you think just the accomplishments he had but veer's an incredible guy and in this episode we get him standing up to londo going londo you're wrong and and and he's he's coming at it but at the same time we never lost veer for who he is because as soon as londo shows a bit of emotion and a bit of distress veer is immediately right there for londo even while being mad at him like i don't know he's ever mad at him right i think that's the thing i think he's next level in that way he was mad at the situation and needed to change and he didn't and he didn't appreciate londo yeah that's fair i'll go with you on that I'd say he's mad at him, but I'll also, I'll buy exactly what you're saying there, Jeff. So this episode, man, really just sets the stage for all of these characters and all of their arcs for where they could go or where they couldn't go. I couldn't give two blips about this shawl, my aunt outside to say, I'm actually really sad. We never see her again. Yeah. I would love to see more of her and Dylan together in the same room.

[39:17] Right. I would love to, to, to dive into that piece of the relationship even more, but it never happens and that's okay. Um, yeah.

[39:29] That's what I'm really leaving this episode with. And oh my gosh, I mean, you talk about messages. We'll get to that spot in a minute. But I mean, this episode is just chock full. And what else would you expect from a DC Fontana written episode? Jeff, how about you, my friend?

[39:41] Same. It's such a, you know, we've really enjoyed a lot of the episodes so far. You know, I think about, you know, Men Out on the Firing Line, Parliament of Dreams.

[39:50] They were great. But this episode, and there was a question. I think it was Katarina in the chat early on. I could be wrong. It could have been somebody else. i don't feel like scrolling up to look but you said did we love this episode the first time because dc fontana wrote it like was that the thing that pushed us over no we love this episode because most of the directing was incredible most of the i think i think all the acting actually was really great the writing was everything was firing all cylinders the six episodes before were episodes this was a moment right like this is say that again jeff because that's worth noting say that again the six episodes before this were episodes this was a moment flip that did the that's that's great that's great jeff and i think it's and i think that's and especially knowing like you said what we know i i like you spoke really well about mirroring and reflecting who these characters become and who they are right now but i want to talk about where we were with these characters the first time around right we were enjoying jakar you made a comment when we watched this the first time of i've seen five different jakars so far the only reason it hasn't been seven is because he wasn't in two episodes right he's different every time it turns out he's just super complex right like it's a right right uh with with sinclair i mean we were he was dog food to us you know oh this is wooden it's horrible it's.

[41:18] I can't believe it i loved everything he did in this episode it was great and the way he did it exactly like yeah just the facial expressions the his body language except for the punch you know that was that was bad i you know my favorite moment of him in this episode it's when he's pretending right and um the the the one lady comes to him and he's talking to her he's just trying to get rid of her and he goes to walk away and they she talks again and he just goes like you you just see this like this air that he's putting oh it's so good he's doing it it's all as a performance for dude who's sitting over there hanging out with with a lot of like oh my gosh good stuff i think about us in veer we thought veer at this point was a punchline you know and it's like the stuff it was all there it was all there for us to see and experience and I mean it's not that we missed it we were looking at the things that we were supposed to be looking at.

[42:20] And feeling we had the seeds planted that were supposed to be there but but now seeing it's just like odd so this is yeah this is a masterpiece i want to i want to say this uh i don't think we loved this episode or at least speaking now in this moment i don't know about before i don't think i loved this episode because dc fontana wrote it i love this episode because of what dc fontana wrote okay you see what i'm saying i get that and she did what dc fontana does best you know what i mean like it's not just because she wrote it no it's because she does what she does really really well and i like what she does like you know uh dc vontana's had i would imagine i can't say that i i'm off the top of my head can name her entire script writing credits but i'd imagine she's got a few out there that aren't the best yeah probably you know probably chances are Our odds are they're not the best, but, uh, this one top notch, man, top notch. This is the kind of stuff I want from my sci-fi or episodes like this. Yeah. You know, I really do. I, this is a part of what makes sci-fi work, not star Trek sci-fi.

[43:31] Yeah. Uh, Ben in the chat talks about this being the template for an outside writer to come in and write a standalone that fits in with a larger arc. If he goes on to say if things had gone a little differently behind the scenes this could have been more of a norm for b5 and jms wouldn't have had to carry the load all by himself but i also uh think about the people who've written episodes and you know uh they're.

[44:00] The ones that stand out this one day of the dead um despite that writer's stuff but they're at a different level, right? Of skill. Not that the other writers were bad, but this is just literally a different level of writer. And it, it just shows so clearly. Well, Jeff, I think with that, let's, let's do the thing. Let's at least run through it where we talk about those messages. Did you pick up anything new this time? I don't, I don't remember what we said last time, but what jumped out to you as, as what, what was really important for you coming out of this episode? We picked up a lot the first time around the, you know, I have shared, you know, I go back and look at the Delta's that we, we scored in the first season. We did Delta's for message and how much we liked it. And we both scored it separately. Both of us gave this five Delta's and we made the statement that if we had six Delta's to give, this would get six Delta's mm-hmm.

[45:02] And so, I mean, we talked extensively about the messages, but I think the two things that really stood out to me in this one was when Shalmayan says, no, keep the thing there. It's a message, right? And it is that scars have stories and often those stories matter, you know, like that's just not a physical thing. That's inside of us as well. we go through really bad things and going through those bad things can lead to better things, and that was the hope of shalmayan that she brought i thought it was um that was really really subtle but really well done and then just this overall thing with londo right and and then it came to fruition for me with veer and londo was kind of coming from this place of well this is how it is yeah duh like it's just what we do yeah it sucks but it sucks for all of us so just shut up and do it do it you know eat your soup kid just come on but then in that scene between him and veer when veer standing up to him it hit me how change happens so slowly right it's intergenerational. Right. And it's incremental that happens.

[46:17] Londo can see it. Well, Londo's dad saw it at the end. Oh, I missed it. Londo has seen it now, not quite at the end, but he's seen it at a time where he doesn't feel like he can do anything about it. Veer can see it. He can say it.

[46:33] But now he has to push against the Londos of the world. Imagine the next generation, you know, and how things change. And so I think we've talked a lot about being the change. You know, if you want to see something different, be that thing. But I think we also have to understand that sometimes it's going to take a long time. You know, and I think that's one of the stories underneath of Babylon five as a whole. There's growth, there's change, but at the end it changes like, yeah, you move in that direction. So those are some things that really stood out to me. What, what stood out for you? You know, to me, there's the, the one message that I think I keep coming back to more and more these days. And this isn't recent to the last couple of weeks. I've been on this train for years, Jeff. If you guys have been following me for multiple podcasts across multiple planes, this is a, this is a theme that I see that I pick up on and I instantly recognize it. This whole idea of, of, um, when you take someone's humanity away from them, when you take their individualism away from them, when you lump people together and all of a sudden they become a thing and they're not people anymore. It becomes easy to hate them. I think of the words from the wizard in the movie wicked and the play wicked, perhaps even the book wicked.

[47:57] If you don't want to spoiler, skip ahead about 30 seconds in three, two, one. He says the fastest way to bring people together is what? Give them a common enemy. And when you give people a common enemy, those people out there are out to destroy your lives.

[48:13] Those people over there are out to get you. Those people over there and when you find one of those people over there regardless of who that person is or what's going on with that individual well.

[48:27] You're a part of that group over there so you're guilty by association it is not something we can or should do and it's not fair when that happens you know um i think of the awful awful things that were done in this own country shortly after the 9-11 attacks attacks over 13 years ago um i think of the awful awful things that were done to asian uh to anyone of asian descent right whether they were born here or not just because of the way they looked during the coronavirus outbreaks particularly over on the west coast which is really where we heard it most i didn't see a ton of it over here but you know the stories i heard were really from from out there yeah um i think of i think of situations even now it's those people over there and when you let that divide us when you let those become the things that strip humanity away from individuals you stop seeing the person to the point that what did the the schmuck say about fish lady kill kill it kill it it's the same thing delin said about soul hunter the exact same word here's the rub to that sometimes you're right and that person's a piece of crap but not always not always but sinclair said yeah to your point that person.

[49:52] Is a piece of crap. Not those people, right person. Right. Right. Listen, just cause I have brown hair and that person over there who has brown hair did something really bad does not mean that I'm responsible for what they did and you shouldn't hold it against me just because I have brown hair doesn't mean that it's my responsibility to go keep everybody else who has brown hair in line either. You know, now I also believe that I have an individual responsibility that if I have, If I have a bit of influence that maybe my brown hair gives me, or maybe it doesn't, that maybe I can say something, then I should, but it doesn't make me responsible. It's what I call the Peter Parker principle of privilege. Say it, Jeff. With great privilege comes great responsibility. Right. That being said, oh, lady, Shawmayan, not to lend hair over my shoulder. Correct.

[50:42] That's Shawmayan over your shoulder. says this the power of love can turn the tide and it can ease the grief gosh what a great what what what greatness um all sentient beings and this i'll end on this one all sentient beings jeff are defined by their capacity and need for love yeah what makes londo a complete jackass Jeff when he exhibits no need for love what melts Londo and makes him somebody that we absolutely love and somebody that we pull for following Adira these kids when he when he turns into uncle Londo yeah I mean like that's uncle and he's got that spot and he's just it he's in his heart is bursting full right man man our glorious tradition values wealth and power over love and Londo it said just episodes ago it's this mask i wear right good stuff so much good stuff in this episode jeff yeah and then all the stuff we talked about the first time also on top of it it's just it's endless i'm curious though yeah if uh because another thing we did last time is we ranked.

[51:58] These episodes right and we're uh and that was the 100 objectively correct ranking of the episodes in the first season of Babylon 5. And so now that we're watching it the second time, we are, this time, creating the objectively correct, immutable, the definitive ranking of the first season episodes of Babylon 5.

[52:19] Top five we have six episodes on there so far but our top five we've got infection in number five mind war at four midnight on the firing line born to the purple and the number one is parliament of dreams brent you get to do it this week where are you putting the war prayer well i i mean, unfortunately jeff or maybe fortunately um this episode is rightly going to push infection out of the top five that's yeah a spot where infection belongs nowhere near uh but this one's really easy to me jeff this is the best episode of the season we've seen so far across the board acting direction writing messaging uh everything about it like you you this episode really this isn't the first time we've seen a bunch of stuff but this is the first time we've seen it done to this level the that something is this show this isn't some deep space franchise this show is about something, exactly yeah know what i mean uh so yeah this is our new number one episode man made the right choice that does it for the war prayer for the second time next week brent we're watching and the sky full of stars do you remember what you predicted for this one i don't but i did look it up um i i said basically uh like war comes to babylon five like the the night sky would be full of ships and they all look like stars or something like that. Or I said it would be some...

[53:47] Poetic thing like uh i i used um indiana jones in the last crusade with the the dad when he's like quoting charlemagne or whatever talking about the birds and everything so yeah i gave it that very nondescript uh thing do you remember what you said jeff i do that was pretty nondescript as well as like some aliens are going to come on board and either they're going to be in awe of stuff on babylon 5 or they're going to feel like babylon 5 should be in awe of them but they're going to see either way like we're full of stars back when i had very very general predictions.

[54:21] Still didn't get them very right very often at all but we're going to see exactly what it was about right here when we watch and the sky full of stars for the second time so we'll see you here when we do that thanks for joining us for this conversation this discussion if you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you are watching this, wherever you are listening to it. In fact, subscribe where you are watching it and where you can listen to it. No harm in having multiple subscriptions, right? Leave us a rating, leave us a review that helps other people know that this is a podcast worth jumping into, that there's some actual interesting conversation going on, gives us some of that social proof. But the thing you can do that will help us more than anything that we appreciate with all of our hearts is share this show with somebody who's into Babylon five. That will be fantastic. We appreciate it so much. So until next time, Hey Jeff. Yes. Uh, Brent, what's, uh, what's, what's, what's going on. Okay. There was something you said in today's episode about humanity and, um.

[55:28] Dude, you were wrong you were way off base with everything you said and i i cannot abide by you doing that anymore you were so wrong that i should think about kicking you off this show, it but brent you can't blame me for it i mean my belt was too tight, your belt what yeah like i gotta i gotta i gotta go like i gotta i gotta like i gotta go oh for crying out loud oh.

[56:10] Music.