TKO | For the Second Time

[0:00] welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm jeff akin you see brent and i used to be star trek podcasters but then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things we didn't know about the first time around. And don't worry folks, because I know you were absolutely worried. Like, are they still going to look for the sci-fi messages? Yes, folks, we are because that's what we do.

[1:06] We're going to be asking what this episode is trying to tell us maybe a little bit different from the last time around. Is it, is, is it telling giving us a mirror to society? Is it giving us hope that things can be better in the future? Is it telling us how to be better human beings to one another. All of that being said, Jeff and I have seen this episode before. We've seen the entirety of Babylon five. So at this point, from this point forward, Jeff, all spoilers are on the table. This is your warning. Jeff and I could speak of any episode, any character from any part of the entire franchise, whether it's been on screen or in a book or any other place, we could talk about stuff that's happened at cons. We could talk about it all at any point this is your spoiler warning if you've never seen babylon 5 before please go back and join jeff and i on our first watch at babylon 5 for the first time it's right here on the youtube channel or in the same podcast feed that you're listening to us right now, and just know that spoilers abounded when you're done with that then join us here for the second watch because this is an entirely different animal hey brent hey jeff we have a five-star review.

[2:17] It's been a while since we've done these and I want to catch up a little bit. It's so great. I'm going to share two of these today. First one was a five star review from Apple podcasts. Dings 41 these names all right dings 41 says love the breakdown of all the episodes and genuine conversations about all the other things that make b5 one of the greatest sci-fi series of all time i like it i like to think we have genuine conversations there jeff i think we do but the thing that i have to agree with this most is that babylon 5 is one of the greatest sci-fi series of all time yeah absolutely for the people who are um joining us live here for our recording of our episode of tko uh we have a special group joining us typically our council chambers are here they're here with us yet again but um you know we're limited in the number of seats that we have available for these things we actually had some extra seats that we could roll over and we were able to use it and so we extended that offer uh down to um all of our patrons that are also on the the discord channel. So they are joining us for this particular episode as well. So we'd like to say hello and welcome to all of you guys there also to all of our patrons who are going to be getting this, um, the, the full thing, uh, over on Patreon. Uh, hello to all of you guys. And thank you so much for your continued support of the show.

[3:40] Absolutely. Today, Brent, this is a big, big moment in Babylon five for the second time. This is the episode where Jeff first planted a flag for an episode it's t k o my advocacy my passion pushed this to be ranked number four in our immutable and objectively correct ranking of the first season for the first time the question today is going to be where does it land when we watch it the second time it is it is the the heightened question i think around this episode like it the theme of this episode is not what will Jeff and Brent think of this episode of the second time around? It's.

[4:21] Is Jeff going to dig his heels in, or is he going to finally see the light and the truth about this episode? That's what people really want to know.

[4:30] Brent is just along for the ride on this one. You have plenty of really important stuff to add as well. We're going to have a great conversation. It's going to be good. Yes. And I'm going to be the paragon of objectivity during this thing. I remember on the first watch, I loved this episode. I loved it from go. And I want to full disclosure. I think I might have shared this last week, but I have watched this episode after the first time. It's been a good two years since I've seen it. But when we were watching in the first season, I went back and watched this, I think, two times because I really enjoy it. Do you remember what you thought of this the first time you watched it? I do. I do. I remember this episode being so cheesy and so stupid, so much to the point that we got a Zima sign, a big-ass Zima sign in the background of this episode. And we got we got some line i don't remember exactly what it was but it's walker sitting there like hey man this is really starting to cheese me off or just some stupid like it was supposed to be a curse word but you couldn't do cuss words on network tv so they changed it's something i don't remember exactly what it was but i remember that coming out of this episode and just cringing and groaning the fighting in this episode the makeup the costumes the teeny tiny little ring that they're fighting in. It was all cheesy. And then I also remember this incredibly...

[5:52] Beautiful story with Ivanova, ostensibly the B plot of the episode and thinking this really should have been the A plot of the episode. There's a rabbi that oversteps his bounds that made me love him so much. I have repeatedly said over the years, I want this guy in my life. I want a rabbi, even though I'm not Jewish. And I hope that's okay. Uh, I also remember thinking that I thought it was beautiful how the two stories actually intersected with the fight scene with, with um walker i think was his name and avonava fighting having her own fight of internal grief and struggle and how the two go back and forth how they juxtapose against each other and i just thought they mirrored each other so beautifully ultimately i liked this episode and the cheesy didn't matter to me like it was cheesy i'm going to confess that it was cheesy but it didn't matter because of what they did with it and so while it may not end up as a well-loved episode or even a very entertaining episode because like this episode again it still gets high marks for me on an artistic perspective which counts really big in my world that's my memory of it now that being said jeff something else i also remember being aware of over the rest of our run through babylon 5 the further we got away from tko and i could only go back and think about it in my memory.

[7:09] The less i liked it every time i thought about it you sir went back and listened to our first time i did i did what did you get out of that i did it always feels so weird because like i'm like here's what i have to separate what i remember right before i listen to things to reconfirm like i write my thing before i listen just okay that's fair that's the it's truly my here's what i remembered we had a lot to say about this episode jeff yeah this was a longish episode for us as we go in jeff yeah no surprise you actually declared this is your favorite episode of the series so far right from go look at that yeah you did right after signs and portents too like what a slap in the face yeah yeah you uh you questioned you had this big question if the mutari were an alien species or a group of ninjas that's what you wanted to know are they an alien species or these are the questions these are the b5 questions we need yeah that's a dropped thread, add it to the list boy another thing that went not at all the way you and i thought it was gonna go when we did it uh the guy playing i forget the name of the the the champion the current champion but the big guy who does the fight at the end uh do you remember who that is oh he was somebody but uh-huh yeah he was james jude courtney he's the guy that played michael myers that's right but he also in like real life was like a mma fighter like like a legit yeah yeah um and like right there in the in the midst of it i went on to the babylon five fan wiki page.

[8:38] For the episode to look him up again i don't think we were so tight on our no spoilers although i will say it is possible to go to those pages to look up certain actors and not getting to go into the spoiler stuff um and and certainly that happened a time or two and not getting into the spoiler stuff like it requires self-discipline and we exercise that uh by the way do you want to know what the babylon five fan wiki page said about james jude courtney what his entire page just went, he is an actor.

[9:08] That's great. There you go. Thanks for that. Like at least he's got something, you know? Yeah. You expressed a lot of admiration for how Jewish people were portrayed throughout the course of this episode. And you had a lot of personal experiences that you were able to bring in and, and you just, you loved how, especially compared to how a lot of times Jewish people are portrayed or the Jewish culture is portrayed in science fiction. So you, you really enjoyed that. Oh, I also, oh, so started a touchy subject here that you and I would later have to go on and somewhat repent over a little bit. But I questioned out loud, of course, this is my own ignorance, was my own ignorance to the situation that was going on with Michael O'Hare as an actor in real life. But for the first time, I verbally said, is he just a bad actor or is he actually a really good actor playing this character who's really, really stiff? And I couldn't tell which one it was. And so, you know, you and I would go on to have this conversation over the next bunch of episodes until we did eventually learn the truth of what was going on with him and how unfortunate that was. And we're like, we're going to take hands off on that and apologize for that. So anyway, but that started here. And then one last one that I had here, Jeff, we talked a lot. In this episode about the power of forgiveness already in this episode. And it was, it was replete. In fact, you and I both gave this one five deltas on the messages based on what it's talking about with the theme of forgiveness.

[10:38] And, and I'd even, I'd list out all the different places where forgiveness pops up and I want to say it. So let's look for it. When we go through here, there's Walker having to ask our Baldy for forgiveness.

[10:48] There's the rabbi having to ask for avonava's forgiveness for overstepping his bounds there's avonava needing to forgive her father in order for her to grief to grieve and then we had to see him asking her for forgiveness like in a they reshot the scene right um and then the the bigger one which actually i thought this one was really cool uh the people forgave walker right because remember like he got railroaded and people uh thought that he was just this miscreant and drug user and whatever and he turned into actually a public hero again which meant the people got over it and they started cheering him and everything yeah right so anyway that's just something like as we go through this episode bearing that in mind that was such a big thing for us in the first round you know we'll keep we'll keep an eye out and see if that actually really is a big thing as we go through this episode or not cool now jeff i went back and listened to the episode just to see what we said you my friend scoured the spoiler free lurker's guide yes is there anything jms had to say about this episode that maybe we didn't know about the first time around you know he didn't say a lot on this one which oh i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry andrew says and the audience forgave jms for making this episode such a meta message right like it went all the way right so um he talked a little bit about the zima thing right uh he said.

[12:11] Uh, and we knew part of this already, but he said, we got not a dime for sticking in the Zima sign. We just thought it'd be funny. Really? Yeah. Well, they were right about that. Right. It's the thing everyone still talks about. Yeah. And our buddies over at the yum, yum podcast, put the gif out of Walker Smith doing the thumbs up in front of the Zima thing. So on that place, we used to go for a social media site, but don't very often. Actually, I haven't been there in a long time, but it's just easily came up for you. So thanks, Yum Yum. Thank you, Yum Yum Podcast. It says actually the idea of what we got. I think they were contacting us about something. And because we never go on that app anymore, I think we dropped that contact. If you guys are listening, we're so sorry. And we should go check that out. Go check it out. Go ahead. Not right now. Sorry. He goes on to say, actually, the idea of Zima lasting even into 1995 is hysterical.

[13:07] I keep fighting the urge to have some guy show up on Babylon five and say, so then I says to him, nice station and five Narns just jump on him and beat the out of him.

[13:19] He talks a little bit about the, uh, the Ivanova storyline and sitting Shiva and says that, uh, he's told that Shiva need not last a full seven days. The death was not recent. And if the body has already been buried, he caught some heat. I'm guessing in the comments about some of the application of the Jewish tradition, that being one of them. And then he also talks about the trial, those are eating trial, trial kosher discussion. Okay. He says, I can only shrug. Nobody's ever shown that Jews go forward into the future, place them at the heart of a science fiction show as a regular character, and no one's ever shown Shiva before in, or possibly out, of a sci-fi series. And some folks are complaining that not every aspect of Atrial's kosher-ness was discussed at dinner time. Some days, you just can't win. Wow. And that's what JMS had to say. Every episode is somebody's first episode, and I tell you what, but you pick TKO as your first, you're my kind of person. I dig it. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to watch us watch the episode. It's going to be right here, and we're going to watch it, and we're going to talk about it and do the reaction thing, edit it up for you so you can watch it there on YouTube if you want to see the full thing, all the conversation we had beforehand.

[14:41] All the mess-ups that you haven't seen here on YouTube or heard on the audio app because we're so smooth. We're so flawless. But if you want to see how flawless we are, you can check us out on our Patreon page, patreon.com slash Babylon five first. That's the number five and the word first. And if you're listening to us on the audio side of things on a podcasting app or I don't know, audible or some other place, you're going to hear the reaction. And then Jeff and I are going to meet you guys on the other side where we're going to share our thoughts. We're talking about any new messages that we might've come out with or anything like that. So Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's watch TKO. Let's do it. Accessing file. White Star?

[15:27] Whoa! They called it the White Star. It's Liner White Star. Wow! And here comes the villain for the week. Yeah. Wasn't White Star, wasn't that also the line that had the Titanic? It's not every day you meet a man with such an interesting police. The White Star line? I think it was. Same here, Rabbi. Take care. Shalom. All right, who's this alien, Jeff? Slappers. With a Med Lab seal yet. And I bet you two beauties are a couple of brain surgeons, huh? Wow. That is... Ow. Doing slappers. One of these days, Garibaldi, you're going to learn to watch your back. Whoa. There's the thing. Whoa. There's the thing. It's a thing. Because you and I know that Sinclair tells him to watch his back in Babylon Squared. But this is the one that matters. Because he's going to get shot in the back in chrysalis, right? Like, we've known that. I didn't know this. Right? Like, this is a thing for him. Yeah. He doesn't watch his back. And look at him smiling. I got that. I'm good. I like the fact they already got the Z in the background right up here. It's a little precursor. It's getting us ready.

[16:38] Suzanne says in our first video, our first time video, we mentioned the watcher back and wondered if it was going to be a thing. And you and I were both like, nah, not a thing. Andre's death was a great sorrow for all of us. Before he died, he entrusted me with a legacy. Your legacy. I was going to give it to you after his funeral. Did we ever find out what this is? What the legacy is, the thing he's going to give her? Of course. You're a military officer in an important position. Duty must come first. Is this episode written by JMS? No, Larry Dottilio. Okay. You sat Shiva here. I haven't sat Shiva. Yeah, funny thing about that, Rabbi. I'll sit with you. I'll arrange everything. I'm afraid I can't. My duties here are very extensive. I just don't have the time. Besides, it's been several months. There's no point. There's always a point. I like that. He doesn't argue with her at all. He's just like, okay. I'm staying over in the sanctuary area in, what do you call it? Blue 3. I'll take you there. The sanctuary area. Do we ever hear about that again? But you will have dinner with me tonight. Of course. I'll come by at 20.00. Dinner at 8 o'clock. That's late, man. That's very late. That's late. I usually stop eating by 8 p.m. Yeah. Such a gas. You've done well, Susichka. Andre was very proud of you, and so am I. Aww. Aww. Aww. Aww. Yay.

[18:05] And she's like, oh, no, the guilt, the guilt. I wonder, was there just a special relationship with him and her family? Or is that typically how Jewish parishioners, I guess, are with their rabbis? This is the thing, man.

[18:22] I don't know how it is for people in synagogue or things like that. I don't know, especially in the future. But there was a time that was every religious community. You just had each other's backs, you know? And the pastor was a pastor or whatever. And if there was a need, people showed up to fill that need. And it's just not how things have worked for a long time, you know? It makes me sad. Seeing this is like, wouldn't that be something if you had a bad thing happen in your family And your rabbi or your priest or your reverend or whatever was like, Hey, I mean, it, it, I've certainly been on that side of it before, you know, but never to, but I've never had that.

[19:04] Relationship with a pastor that becomes an uncle. Now I've got an incredibly close friend of mine who's a pastor and he is a personal friend, like from a very long time ago. And he would, I, my kids would call him uncle. Okay. And there are daughters call each other sisters. Like that is a closeness that extends beyond the pastor parishioner. He's not my pastor either, but you know, like that would extend beyond that particular relationship. It's just in general. It's weird to me. So I don't know. Nia in the chat says, uh, it's not unheard of. Not unheard of. Okay. Very good. I'll take, I'll take Nia's a word on that. Yeah, absolutely. Source of authority. And then Becky says, or they're, wow. Becky says my actual uncle is a pastor. Great call man. Uncle, whatever. Now, if you could possibly grant her a few days leave, certainly she can take as much time as she needs. I love how he's just no hesitation. I will tell Susan at dinner tonight, by the way, this Babylon five of yours, a great.

[20:16] Thank you. Was that inappropriate? Like, sit down and talk about Ivanova like that with her not in the room? Or knowing that that conversation was happening? I don't think so. No? Yeah, I'm not sure. It just felt like, it felt a little weird. It might be with today's, what we might say, sensibilities, you know, and our focus on consent. But I think, yeah, I don't, no, I don't think so. I don't think he said anything to Sinclair that was like confidential – no, like confidential information. Like he didn't betray any trust there.

[20:58] Just explain what's going on. What I appreciate about this is this is not gossip. If you define gossip as you're talking about situations with people who have no impact on the outcome, they can't fix it. They weren't a part of the problem at all. Sinclair can help fix it. He's got to give time off. Like he needs to understand. So, so I, I think it was actually rather appropriate now that you asked that question, but I can see why it might feel a little icky.

[21:25] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And over in the chat with, uh, our, our Patreon folks that have joined us, there's some good conversation on both sides of it. And, um, kind of a theme in a couple of them is that well-intentioned, but sometimes inappropriate meddling can be very in character and i remember saying and i'm still going to stick by this because i still feel this way i want somebody to meddle in my life like that you know like i do i want somebody to do that you do but what i know of avanova she does not no but but i also love like as we're frozen here and you can see sinclair's face like one again i think he looks tired but also like he feels like he's doing something good for someone like a friend you know they're co-workers but they're friends yeah i know we talked about whether or not he's a good actor or not or if he's just wooden and stiff i i don't feel like he's wooden and stiff so far yeah i don't either in this episode maybe later on as we go but i don't feel like it right now and i think that's just testament to how you and i have come around on uh his performance here in the second watch through yeah big time he was so terribly afraid of losing you as he lost sophie and ganya he lost me long before that. Is that why you won't sit, Shiva?

[22:39] No i told you my duties won't allow it we've got three trade convoys due by saturday and commander sinclair seems to think he can handle it and he said you could have as much time as you need you spoke to the commander about this she's not mad that he went and spoke to the commander.

[22:55] She's not she's not mad about what he did she is mad she is scared and mad about having to actually sit sheva to face and her excuse is now gone i don't need anyone to take it that's the word she's saying here is not actually the real feelings there yeah you know i think it's it's that like how it's a face reality and she's feeling out of control people are making decisions for me and their decisions i'm scared to make well that and i mean and she did verbalize that people have been trying to control me my whole life and you're not going to control me and in this case he's trying to push her to go towards this thing which is good for her sometimes you gotta make kids eat their vegetables though yeah so you know and as rabbi that's how he sees it, yeah yeah you were negotiating the euphrates treaty at the time i was needed here do you remember the euphrates treaty yeah that was around the ragash three stuff and that's what they uh to sit shiva for your father that's what veer ended up being able to negotiate and code off were able to show gotcha yeah yeah i returned to my post no you may not have a chair dude he is so soft-spoken on this with her i love it like because you know sinclair can get real deep like he can get real oh and commanding and here he's so soft as he goes through i love it i couldn't run this station without you your father's dead you need to express your grief or it'll eat you up.

[24:22] Tell her yeah i appreciate your concern commander now if i may return to my duty okay let's have this conversation jeff okay let's juxtapose how rabbi koslov approached this, versus how sinclair approached this okay okay because they both did the same thing right right they both were like you're going to do this you should do this i'm telling you to do this as your friend as somebody who cares about you but they both approached this in very different ways.

[24:50] What do you think well it's interesting because i think, rabbi was approaching it as if she was you know little susan yeah you know this is the right thing to do this is what it is yeah sinclair is taking the friend approach these are feeling and really it's such a great message these are your feelings and you have to feel your feelings and you have to express them i think that the rabbi was more focused on this is a thing you should do and it's for your family whereas sinclair's is so focused on like i'm worried about you and you have to feel what's going on i like i like that so much better like well i i think the difference is and and just to put it in these words that you were kind of getting them rabbi koslov treated her like a little girl sinclair treated her like a full-grown woman like a full-grown adult yeah you know and but notice the difference in how she responded she responded out of it she she was saying the same thing to both of them and and it wasn't it wasn't being angry and mad necessarily at either one of them. It was, I don't want to do this. And my choice is my own, right? Like she said that verbally to both of them, but she was able to approach it much calmer with him because he treated her like an adult with respect. Whereas Rabbi Koslov, and this is probably more just due to the personal nature. I mean, Jeff, will you ever be able to see your daughter as not your daughter? She'll be my little baby forever.

[26:13] Exactly. And Rabbi Koslov, because I think he's uncle kosal to her right she's still always you know that's where he's gonna be and i don't know that either one of them are wrong that's the thing exactly because they have two different relationships with her coming from it's just one works better than the other and it's interesting how tv interjects itself here because i think I think there's a level with Sinclair is a level of professional inappropriateness. Like he's her commanding officer. There's a power dynamic there that makes this a difficult conversation. It makes it more difficult for her to say, I'm making my own choice. Yeah. Right. I think there should like, wait, it isn't wrong, but there should have been a, Hey, Susan as friends, like I feel this thing. Cause there is a different way you would approach this as a, as a manager or a commanding officer or something in terms of just like very important to me that you do whatever it is you need to do to take care of yourself. If that means time, if that means reassignment, if that means whatever, I'm here to facilitate whatever that is. If you need to talk, I'm here to talk. It's just a different approach. But yeah, I think both are right. I think Sinclair's a little more effective. Sinclair's was a lot more effective. A lot, yeah. He's connected with the actual person.

[27:25] So the memory of the person. But it's interesting that I think you put it in a really great way. The difference is you treat one like an adult versus treating them like the kid that you see them as. And yeah, you know, Susan, before you make that choice, make sure you know what it is you're really feeling. Yeah. That donut? It's good. What is it? Yolk tree. Fried tree worm. He did anyway. Yeah. If you liked it. Into the sands of blood comes Lukar of the Drazi, the bravest of his race. You and I would have heard somebody, somebody of the Drazi and had nothing to do with that. Yeah. And now comes the Shorin. Shorin. master of the multi bravest of the brave georg we never see these aliens again after this episode do we no so you got a yellow belt and a red belt going again going at it i wonder if the belts have the same significance that we think of in martial arts today i think that most of them have yellow belts except show ring and show ring is to wear the red belt there's a burkiri we just saw burkiri.

[28:29] All right how's this fighting choreography it's actually really great i don't feel like that's as bad as i thought it was no i really don't here's the thing it's not quite fights like this can be so corny they can be so bad but they have like these tight shots in so there's not a lot of room for mess up they've got space to hit everything they need to hit the sound effects are in line with what's going on like this is a really well produced television fight like if this is a movie right it'd be more flashy stuff but but the still angles they've got the shore in triumph and remains michael myers big dude who is brave enough to challenge such a one, are you nuts for some session didn't you see what just happened in there it's my only shot, He just fought a fight You're going to turn on and offer him up To somebody else in the audience It's like money in the bank, You're going to cash in Except the outcome might not be as predetermined Right That might be 10 feet They fear the show rent But I am the bravest of my race.

[29:46] Sorry Mike You're going to be a lot sorry when you step in there with that planet bus What I really like is they've set up how Walker is just this massive racist. What's your problem, pal? But right here, you're getting the same on him. You're a human and you're in here. You're making a mockery of us. Humans have no place in the Muay Thai. It is ours, and we will not let you dishonor it. Not now. Not ever. So we're getting a lot of cultural rub in both stories right now.

[30:17] The samovar i blame him for denying me his love even his mama became incapable of giving me hers i needed him yossel he wasn't there and now that he is left for good you cannot forgive him so forgiveness this is an important line right here then the tragedy is greater than i thought without forgiveness you cannot mourn and without mourning you can never let go of the pain i have to go on duty you cannot run away from your own heart susan this is him saying exactly what sinclair said thank you for bringing samovar i'll see you before you leave paul paul brings out a good idea do we ever see the samovar chilling in avonava's quarters like in future episodes yeah keep an eye for that i do um really appreciate the jewish tradition in that like at no point in there was he like if you don't do these things your father can't truly rest oh yeah right yeah so many other faiths you you do things for the other you know the soul or the whatever the person jewish faith is like no you gotta take care of you like let's make sure you're still good but susan does what so many people does susan avanova does what so many people do she hides behind her work yeah Keeps it going. You did well last night, Arthur.

[31:32] I want you to know how proud I am of you, Susan. But a father should give his daughter love as well as respect. And that I failed you. I'm sorry. Forgive me. It's a good apology. I mean, don't wait for your deathbed to say those things. But he said them. Ah, it's good work by the soundtrack there. Yeah. Help me sit, Shiva. I was not a fan of the edit there. No? No. Because she's having this moment. She's like, Uncle Yasel. And then it cuts to her walking up to him. Stay. Help me sit, Shiva.

[32:12] Like, wait a minute. That's not working. That's not working. In sports, Babylon 5 is back to the site of a history-making event. As ex-Sports Corp boxing star Walker Smith prepares to be the first team. Not a fan of the font of the word sports back there. There's the Zima sign. I'll tell you, Mike, history. I'm an attorney. See you tomorrow, buddy. I missed the stroke off, which sounds really awful and inappropriate. You're the best I've ever seen. Here it is. Here it is. Yes. Yes. With the Zima sign right there. Yep. So perfectly blocked. May I have a word? Of course. I'd like to take your offer of leave. Granted. Thank you. He does look a little high right now. Yes, sir. Yeah. I believe it's customary for friends to pay their respects during Shiva. I'll see you there i'd like that so like that where he's like friends right like let's define what relationship i'm leaning on right now you know it's because of this episode because of what sinclair did there that when a jewish buddy of mine when his mother died yeah i felt the, courage i guess to go to the funeral and be a part of that and above all.

[33:23] One of the things i remarked in the first watch is this whole thing that goes back and forth with walker doing this fight this thing of violence where navadova is sitting shiva for a man of peace like it's just it's just an interesting side side just to put some exclamation points on what i was saying earlier paul in the chat says the movie amadeus one musician struggling on each note the other just letting the music sing and then mega it's beautiful uh as uh as iron sharpens iron so one person sharpens another yeah you're talking about the difference between violent here's violence and here's a peaceful man i think that avanova has been experiencing her own violence yes this is what this is what i've been saying since we watched this for the very first time avanova has her own fight that is going on within her on the inside whereas walker is having this fight that is going on on the outside and that's what makes the the artistry of this episode stand so far and above almost any other episode what's going on in the ring with walker is metaphor for the internal struggle that's going on with avanova whatever else you think about this episode, the artistry of how they pieced this together is phenomenal to me. And I think the fight they're fighting is very similar.

[34:47] They've set up this Walker Smith story very plainly. Just, I mean, they've laid it out. I'm a racist. We are exclusionary. I'm going to learn your ways and then ultimately come to respect. But that's the same thing happening within Susan. I'm going to say Susan on this.

[35:02] I am an Earth Force Lieutenant Commander. I am a Russian Jew. I am a daughter. She has these cultural intersections that are exclusionary to each other, and she realizes through this that they can actually all be together, and they can all be together. You don't have to be a compartmentalized human being. You can actually be an integrated person. And we're seeing this occur in both stories, beat for beat. When you do, and keep moving. Don't let them trap you. It is time. It is time. Okay, Rafiki.

[35:35] Papa took my hand, and he turned. And as we walked out, he said to me, it was a good question, Dushenka. I like how this is reframing her memories of her. I was just thinking that. because of being able to say Shiva, she's now able to think of other memories as she remembers her father. Walker Smith of Earth, the bravest of his race. The guy? The white guy there. He's like, who? Me? This guy's the guy to watch. He's like, oh, he feels human. Bravest of the brave. You know, Zuntech O looks so, he looks so stiff. Yeah. Under all this costume and makeup, He's all like...

[36:21] First fight's the championship fight. Big deal. Well, his fist came around to draw super fast. So this is the point where, like, Walker Smith's doubt and his not belonging is shown. He's just working him over because he is foreign to this. Trying to find his footing. He can't do it. Oh, he's cut. Carapal is like, maybe I shouldn't beat Ketow. The things I know aren't working. I can't come in this as what I am. I have to bridge the gap. Look at that. Hey he got a little something on that one he's been doing blow no one makes me bleed my own blood the mule let's see he's changed up his style a little bit he's realizing he can't he has to be more.

[37:22] See i do find it a little unbelievable that he goes from as inept as he was at the beginning of the fight to just kick an ass this quickly in the middle of the fight really although they're limited on time for the episode but still yeah but also i think like part of the stories he can take a he can take a beating right you know he's resilient thick skin all the things but i think that's part of the thing you go in you fail a couple of times yeah adjust come back at it and do it differently and yeah they just had to do it a little quicker than normal but like in a fight that happens instantaneously sometimes though it's traditional to recite the morning prayer in hebrew i would like to read it in english tonight i love this yeah i i loved this the first time around i talked about this a lot the fact that she's gonna break a little tradition for the sake of her friend who was there of compassion and for us listening as well perfect rest beneath the sheltering winds of thy divine presence among the holy pure who shine as the brightness of the firmament, to andre my father who has gone to his eternal home see look see okay so to your piece okay the beginning of the fight walker is out of place he's out of disjointed the beginning of shiva.

[38:42] Avanova is just sort of sitting there and she's kind of jovially just you know.

[38:48] Rabbi koslov's doing his little speech at the beginning right and she's just like whatever walker comes in and he kind of starts adjusting and finding a spot she starts sharing the stories and having better memories you know and now she's going through this whole piece fighting this this i mean she's the fight of her life right now on the inside right with the struggle she's she has held on to her anger and resentment for him for so much and.

[39:13] What did she just say to a father whom i loved i loved yes right so you know uh i'm gonna stand by what i've always said that the yeah the two match up i can see it more plainly this time too it's just hers in that moment right there i had that moment when my dad passed away my biological father yeah i and i talked about that in the other episode so i'll let you guys go listen to that there i won't rehash you here but just the acting claudia christian right there is so real and i think this is where i think some people get mired up in this episode the ivanova story has nuance there's acting there's actual like internal struggles in both like the in rabbi kozlov in ivanova there's like real stuff happening in the mutai story it is right there here is the thing there is no nuance it's just boom boom boom but i think that actually heightens the impact of the nuance right it's not i i've been saying this for two years now jeff yes yes yes i even love that their blood is a different.

[40:21] I'm just glad that the show ren's blood is not green yeah but it's just highlighting, these are different people coming together one of the criticisms i had in the first run and i'm to re-highlight it here is the sound effect they're using for these punches it's the same effect over and over it's just hitting the same button again and again it's not different effects at all it's just they're different they're different you got boom crack whom listen this is not batman okay dude lay off i just don't like how you can't throw punches like that and just keep.

[41:02] It is done. All right, this thing was supposed to be to the death. It's over. What did he just put on his wrist? Slapper. Probably like a pain thing. Look at his hand. Let's see his hands all like bloodied up and everything. Take your belts off and give it to him. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. He is. It's a total Rocky IV moment right here. And here's the thing. Rocky IV ended the Cold War. Yes, this is a TV show, so it's not as big, but it's the same thing. Well, you know, Mega just posted over here in our chat, the Muay Thai advanced human-alien relations more than any diplomatic meeting could. 100%. I don't think he's wrong about that. The Heathrow.

[41:59] Ivanova looks lighter. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just double shifts. Perhaps you'll remember that next time Ms. Sakai visits the station. Yeah. Remember her? Remember that lady? I heal better in real air. Walkersmith, you fought well in the Muay Thai. From now on, humans may enter the ring as brothers to all Muay Thai. If you have returned to the Muay Thai, I will stand katao for you. I wouldn't want anyone else. Garibaldi's right there.

[42:39] See you when I come back for the rematch. You know, there's a whole other parallel here that I didn't catch before. The power of mentorship for both people, right? You hear you've got dude and then with rabbi, you know, like there's just that whole, I'm a person who's a couple steps ahead of you. I've had my moment and now I'm going to help. I'm telling you, every facet of this story. Again, we've said this so many times, but watching it, here it is. Every facet of the story. Something I haven't done until you just mentioned that is the comparison between Rabbi Kosloff and the Muda Doe. Yeah. Because they're effectively serving the same purpose, right? They are, yes. I mean, as you say, or I guess maybe even Caliban and Rabbi Kosloff. But they're facilitating the fight, so to speak. Giving the person permission to have the fight. Yeah. Even when they – Correctly. Yeah, yeah. With honor and respect, right? Mutado just says that, but Kozlov is leading things in the same way. Honor and respect for yourself and for the relationship you had with your dad. I like it. Watch your back. Watch your back. The best I've ever seen.

[43:50] I'm floored by this one. Right? I'm floored by that. That's the biggest revelation I've had out of this whole freaking episode, man. And especially when it's literally just like, there's the exclamation point on the whole thing. Oh, my word. Well, Brent, we just watched this for the second time. TKO. Yeah. I got to tell you a thing. I told you I was going to be the paragon of objectivity in this. You did say that. I didn't like this episode as much as I did the first time. I do not believe that's true. You liked it. No. Here. Wait, wait, wait. You didn't like it as much as you did the first time. You liked it more. No, actually, no. Really? I'd say I appreciate it more. I can see the mirror between the storyline so much more clearly now. I also, looking at it, would make the case that the A story is Ivanova's story. Like, that's the real story in this. Just because it started and ended on the Mutado, the Mutai piece, doesn't necessarily mean it's the A. But the only reason that really hit me in this one, I think somebody said it in the chat in here, but outside of that one whoosh of the soundtrack when Ivanova ran to Kozlov, the soundtrack in here was not good.

[44:59] It was corny, and I think it sucked the life out of the end. That ending scene, pew, pew, pew.

[45:07] It just sounded awful. someone earlier in the chat also said that this might be the most 90s episode of Babylon 5 totally agree and I think the soundtrack is part of it yeah it actually detracted from it that said it's still a damn good episode any highlights for you um I am going to go back to my original statement about this episode I really like this episode I really like I'm gonna say it I really like this episode the further i get away from this episode while i kind of look back on it and think it's goofy i'm gonna tell you what i didn't think the fighting was really all that cheesy in this episode i really didn't yeah it was not i did not you know i do think that he came around really quick on figuring out how to fight him the way that you were explaining it but i mean there's constraints of television show i'm not gonna i'm not gonna hold that against it you know uh the the stroke off thing which you and i both missed because we talked over it yeah but uh still that that's just goofy and cheesy zima is just fun but the episode it's a solid episode i don't care what y'all say out there and this is my second time saying it yeah i think it's solid episode is it a top 10 episode of the whole season maybe not but it's it's holding its own you know i mean it's certainly it's top well i don't know i'd have to look at the whole rest of the season yeah we got more i mean do there season one of babylon five is is really terrific it really is it's got a handful of that wasn't a great episode. I'll tell you what, this is not one of them.

[46:36] This is not one of them. And I'm going to stick by what they meant or what they did in this episode, the artistry that this episode shows, the way that they show the Jewish custom of Shiva, which is not done. It certainly wasn't done before. And we haven't seen it been done since I might be out there somewhere on some film that I'm unaware of. But for the most part, in normal pop culture, you know, the greater thing, we've never seen it. Um, you are not wrong to say that the, the whole fight sequence and stuff, it tells its own story as it goes through. You're not wrong when you say that this is a good episode. Yeah, I think so. And I think I, I, I don't want to take anything away from people who don't appreciate combat as a story. That's a very valid point to utilize violence as a form of storytelling. I, if that's anathema or you know i get that that's 100 valid for those of us that see violence as a way and the thing is violence is violence right and violence can show up in a lot of ways and it's physical violence but the thing is with so many when when it's a sport i don't think of it so much as violence i think of violence as being chaotic and out of control you know i don't know what's going to happen and it's so violent the violent wins the violence of in a an abuser or I don't know what's coming. Whereas in combat, you know what's up.

[48:06] Right. Like, yes, it is. It is a form of violence, but, but it's, it's, it's, they're not apples and apples, but also I acknowledge, uh, the personal feelings and totally validate them. If you're not that person and you don't see what we've been talking about in this, I'm begging you to watch this again and literally just take your preconceived notions and set them aside because this is a really well done episode. And I'll even go so far as to say this. If you think this is not good or bad and you like a late delivery from Avalon, I want you to do some introspection. They're both full of cheese. They're full of camp.

[48:47] Right? This one tells a good story, though, and tells it well. Late delivery from Avalon tried to tell a good story. It did not do it well. But the actor. But the guy. Yeah, the guy. The guy. All right. I'm going to get off my soapbox. You know dylan dylan's bring up a little bit of a good point over here in our chat uh says the fighting plot felt overdone back in the 90s from rocky to karate kid we've been doing this plot line a lot so to bring it into an episode just felt overdone by 1994 95 whenever this came out so i i could maybe understand what you're saying there um i'll tell you one of the things that's interesting to me jeff as often as we've talked about this episode with other people. We've seen comments. We get this one comment, Dylan actually just said it there, and I've seen it half a dozen times in tonight's comments chat, and I've seen it six dozen times in our comments on YouTube and Patreon. The Ivanova storyline is great. The fighting storyline is just awful, which is similar to actually something that I've said, which may be where the group think is really sinking in for me. I'm fully admitting that like, that's the thing that's getting into my brain here. But as I watch this, I'm kind of going, actually, it's not that bad. You know, going, going through here. So.

[50:06] I will say absolutely. The Ivanova storyline is better. Yeah. It's executed better. It's acted better. It's written better. It is better, but that doesn't mean the other one isn't good. Well, you also came out saying the Ivanova storyline is the a plot, you know, but as we know from gray 17 is missing, whichever part of the episode gets the title line, that's has to be the a plot, right? Right. Yeah. So I don't, I mean, TKO is a much catchier name than Shiva for an episode, right? Like sitting shiva unless it's the league that's a whole different thing right right um i did pick up something new out of this and not new actually i think i've had this thought since we watched this for the first time i just didn't know that i was allowed to say it or how the best way is to say it okay but i'm gonna say it now maybe it's still not the right way but whatever i'm gonna say it now walker smith is eminem all right you know i'm talking about talking about the rapper i know who Eminem is. I'm not talking about the candy. I'm speaking of the person Eminem Walker Smith is Eminem. And here's what I mean by that.

[51:07] Walker Smith goes in and what is, what does the guys say to him there in the mood of ring? You can't come do this. You're not one of us. This isn't for you. We're going to keep you out of here. Right. Eminem enters a form of music. That is a form of music that is, that is not for people like him.

[51:29] Right. Right. Hip hop specifically is a, is eight mile a TKO remake, but, but hip hop is specifically a black form of music and African-American form of music. It is, I'm quoting 50 cent here, but then Eminem comes in and he does it better than most everybody else out there. And he's white and y'all are tripping about it. You know, I find an incredible parallel with these, with these two things. Like you can't do that because you're not, okay, let's take this thing that's happening in alien culture, right? Let's take this thing in sci-fi where we take a mirror of earth society and we put it out there so we can see it for ourselves, right?

[52:08] You can't do this because you're not of my race, right? Somebody, somebody said in the chat earlier, when Bruce Lee started wanting to teach martial arts to Americans, he was, was like, I don't want to beat up. I don't know. A lot of Asian people came after him because you can't do that. That's ours. That's, that's, you can't allow those outsiders to come in and get our thing. Yeah. It turns out you know i don't know i mean i don't know what the message is here except for just i i feel that's kind of a dumb way to be about stuff yeah now i'm also saying that as the white guy who's intruding on everybody else's culture and stuff i guess like i guess that's supposed to be the thing but like does it really do we really have to have those lines drawn like if somebody's actually just good at it does it have to matter i think i honestly think that the Mutado gave us the parameters for that. Like there's cultural appropriation and that's not okay. Then there's participating in a culture and the difference is honor and respect.

[53:10] Yeah. And I think like Eminem is a great example. He didn't come in being like, oh, y'all suck. He just came in and was like, look what I got. You know, Bruce Lee. Hey, you all don't know how to, nope. Look what I'm bringing. Look what I have here. Yeah. And I think it's, it's, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense jeff did you get any other new messages or anything out of out of this watch through just one we talked about a little bit but the the line that uh avanova said about andre that humanity doesn't belong in space until they can live peacefully on earth like and let's get let's get our own house cleaned up before we go mess up somebody else's house right like people are talking about we're going to colonize mars we're going to this well you don't get to you get don't get to ruin one planet and like kill a whole bunch of people and then go do it somewhere else you got to take care of what you have so not much i just like the line counter argument though okay uh the star trek counter argument actually going to space and getting in the stars what if that's actually what helps us get our house in order so what happened in star trek is it wasn't necessarily us going into the stars right it was us showing we have the capability and then the star is kind of coming to us. And I think that's a big difference. It's not a, not a direct parallel. I'm just saying, what, what if the thing that you're saying, you know, we've got to do this first before we can go do that.

[54:27] When actually that is the thing that helps us get there. And are you cutting yourself off from, from an opportunity? But I hear what you're saying. If we're messing up our own deal here, why are we going to go just mess up somebody else's deal? As we've seen that in so many other places. And we've actually seen that happen in history. Yeah. How look at the industrialization of Europe that spread across the world to destroy natural, beautiful land. Yeah. Elsewhere. Like Nia makes a good point though in the chat. Like there's Andre saying that we have to take care of home first, but Walker had to go into space because home wasn't taking care of him. Oh, that's deep. Yeah. That's deep. He had to go get the respect of the universe before Earth would give him the respect back.

[55:14] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jeff. Yeah, we're there, aren't we? I think we're there. You know, we've talked about new things. We've talked about all the stuff. We're not going to rehash everything that we talked about in the middle of the video a couple of new messages that we have there we've got really one thing left to do jeff it's to place this in our 100 completely accurate absolute definitive ranking of babylon five season one for the second time jeff i'm curious where this is and is going to go our current top five is signs importance at number one death walker is number two war prayer is number three war prayer is number three really wow uh sky full of stars is number four and believers is five jeff i have a feeling this is going to find its way into the top five at least right now maybe not maybe it will where are you placing tko get ready for shock it's not going to the top five.

[56:05] I thought i honestly i thought for sure it was going to displace believers so that's that's the pivot point i'm looking at but i think that was just such a powerful episode sure believers in so many ways and uh and just so much to bite off but also what it does like the launch point for franklin's story like believers is an episode that has reaching consequences and impacts through the series this was an episode that gave us some more depth to avanova and maybe appreciate sinclair just a little bit more so i'm going to make this one tko which was ranked number four in our first time uh ranking it's gonna be our new number six wow and we'll see if it stays there i did enjoy it more than by any means necessary uh yeah i can see that zento didn't quite push it over the walker smith can take out zento well jeff that's gonna do it for tko this episode moving on jeff we got a brand new episode for the second time on deck for next week we're watching the episode called grail you and i have had a lot to say about this episode over the years there are there are certain things that come out of this episode that we continue to talk about. The biggest one, I.

[57:25] Having the right guest star can elevate an episode yes and i'm excited to dive back into this one jeff do you remember though you need to go back before we watched grail what was well actually i'll tell you what let me do my prediction first okay what i what i predicted because it's i think gonna affect some things yeah i'm pretty sure i remember what i predicted yeah here's what i said i said this is indiana jones in the last crusade they're gonna rip the whole movie off, there's they're going to be looking for and i said it couldn't be anything different it had to be this they're going to be out looking for the grail they're going to find a knight who's gonna be like you have chosen bali and you have chosen wisely and they're going to have three trials that they got to get through it it's a treasure hunt it's a beat for beat ripoff of last crusade and it can't be anything different and if it's not i'm gonna riot that's what i said jeff what was your prediction i said that i think it's going to be exactly the same thing you think it's going to be.

[58:23] You and i were so great on this one like i've got it if i'm one of you guys out there i hear us say that and i'm just like yeah you guys are way off on this we will get we will get i mean this is the one where we get full front of londo though right yeah yeah we get full front we learn stuff about the dude is it i think so is it not i think it is i think it is i'm pretty sure and we know we get the uh and the jinx so we get the the knuckling feeder yeah no i think i think the the um i think full front of londo is um quality of mercy actually is it really i think so it's much really all right i think all right it's been a while.

[59:08] All right. All right. We're going to exactly just how far off we were, which is pretty far. Next week, we're going to come back here. Hey, we've been here for a long time tonight. This has been a longer than normal episode, as was our first run through of this episode. There's a lot to dig into in TKO, a very fairly rated ranked top six episode of the season. So far join us next week. See where Grail lands. It's going to be awesome. Thanks for hanging out with us. If you're on YouTube, make sure you're subscribed.

[59:35] Hit the bell, like us, comment down below. if you're on a podcasting app, rate us, write a review. If that's a thing that you can do on the app you're listening to, it's awesome. But regardless of where you're watching this, do us a huge favor, massive solid and share this with somebody, somebody who loves Babylon five, hates Babylon five has never heard of it. Just share it with somebody. People need to know how great this show is. So with that, we're going to wrap it up next time. Jeff. Yeah. Brent, what, what is up? Hey, so I got a thing coming up. you may or may not know this i've gotten into a little little professional wrestling a little little mma type stuff and uh man i was wondering how would you like to stand in as my katow what come on from the from the thing by katow katow what do you want me to do you want to like hire some cheerleaders or something ah dude just come be my corner man you know be there when i need you all right man i will always be your katow oh gee thanks jeff.

[1:00:39] Music.